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Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2125	Posted - 2015.01.09 23:32:09 - [1] - Quote Can we get the AFK Cloaking Collection Thread linked in the OP? Locked but not forgotten. it will mean people can read the existing ideas before they start suggesting the EXACT SAME IDEAS and spamming up this thread (which has already started to happen). then perma-ban those that propose the EXACT SAME IDEAS. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2131	Posted - 2015.01.10 17:10:21 - [2] - Quote ISD Ezwal wrote: So in short we judged it best to have one focal point, one open thread on the subject. And that, indeed, saves us work in the long run. It also saves frustration by the people that do want to discuss this topic, which is equally as important. Im sure many of us have asked for a sticky for afk cloaking as well. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2134	Posted - 2015.01.11 02:16:44 - [3] - Quote Rabalina LaFlema wrote: Add a module that emits decloaking pulses in a 4-10 AU radius. Similar mechanics to ecm. The module may consume fuel, affect mobility, be unable to fit in most ships or other possibilities. Active modules may appear in overview. Active cloakers will notice fast enough to move to another safepoint, unless being a noob or a very big/slow ship (maybe only works on covops ships, advice needed on this). Afk cloakers will get decloaked, and probed, and killed, and burned, and whatever you want. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Please, please, please link The AFK Cloaking Collection Thread in OP. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2154	Posted - 2015.01.14 07:48:17 - [4] - Quote Jihad leader wrote: Server safe logout after 2 hours of player inactivity no input from mouse or keyboard all the useless afk people in stations and cloaked in space would greatly reduce server loads and the games network. they are afk shut them down makes eve a little better for people activly playing :) plus its a good way to get people more active how did you come up with this completely original idea? im especially interested to know how you came up with the idea that AFK players take up great amounts server load. thats just genius! EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2167	Posted - 2015.01.15 03:38:44 - [5] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: CCP has also said before that ISBoxer and other programs of its type are ok, yet they just changed their minds about it and reduced its functionality. yeah...they didnt open a thread about it and say: 'Sorry we keep locking your repetitive threads. put all your crap here. seven threads less to close per week' edit- and as far as i can tell, ISD made this thread. Not CCP. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2168	Posted - 2015.01.15 03:55:22 - [6] - Quote I believe ISD will chime in from time to time. If they see something interesting they may pass it on. However, the chances of new debate are slim: Quote: Edit: As reference the old AFK Cloaking Collection Thread Edit 2: Some closed but relatively recent threads on the subject for further reference. - What if Circadian Drones would detect afk cloaky campers - Cloaking Mechanic - Cloaks - Covert-Op's System Overload - A 3 player gamechanism to make a chance to decloak afk cloakies - 2 ideas, 1 thread - cloaking and high sec cynos - once upon a time there was a cloaky camper.... - Cloaky ships - Another ideal for better gameplay with sensors - sound/ELINT - Covops killing Destroyer - Smart Bomb to de-cloak - porbes that can detect cloaked ships? - Anti-UBoot warfare - Inactivity Timer: Log Out Campers Trust me. This thread is less an acknowledgment of a problem. And more an acknowledgment of our privilege to discuss. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2173	Posted - 2015.01.16 02:35:45 - [7] - Quote Nendail Smith wrote: Seems we've gone full circle now. :) You must be new. Welcome to an afk cloaky thread. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2173	Posted - 2015.01.16 05:48:33 - [8] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Stop beating about the bush. The bush is on fire and you saying the fire is good for your mashmallows doesn't help. The bush is on fire because it refused to accept making its home on the bank of an active volcano was dangerous. Instead it whined that its home was meant to be a safe haven despite the surrounding environment and he had a right to be there because he paid his mortgage in monthly installments. He never admitted that he probably didnt belong anywhere near a volcano in the first place and demanded god did something about the volcano rather than adapt his home or choice of location EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2185	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:59:07 - [9] - Quote So we should add risk to docked players. Gotcha. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2185	Posted - 2015.01.16 23:43:04 - [10] - Quote Eryn Velasquez wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: So we should add risk to docked players. Gotcha. Would be nice - open the inner door CCP and let's play DUST inside. But that has nothing to do with cloaked camping. It in fact has much to do with cloaked camping. Do you think it would be necessary to afk cloak if you could get into the homes of the carebears and destroy their ship in its hangar? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2185	Posted - 2015.01.17 02:24:25 - [11] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Do you think they can go and seek more ships to attack in the whole wide galaxy of EVE and come back another time? People can AFK just as easily in a POS and that is destructable. Settled. Make a mechanic where it takes approx 36 hours to expose the cloaker. But if he moves, you have to start all over again. Eryn Velasquez wrote: It is not necessary to stay cloaked in a system 23/7 to get kills. Killboard entries prove this. It's just a carebear style to get perfect riskless intel. The carebear cloaker has all odds on his side, he decides when and how the action starts. My proposal puts a little risk on this behaviour. The risk for the habitants stays the same as before. Likewise the carebear docker has all odds on his side, he decides when and how the action starts. My new proposal puts a little risk on his docking behaviour. The risk for cloakers stays the same as before. New proposal: Deployable, small enough to fit in a covert ops frig. has a four hour cool down. When activated it ejects all docked ships from starbases and super bumps any ships out of a POS shield. If they are active they can warp out, if not they get 'grilled'. This solves the risk-free game style of docking up when something that isnt blue appears in local. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2189	Posted - 2015.01.17 17:05:44 - [12] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: New proposal: Deployable, small enough to fit in a covert ops frig. has a four hour cool down. When activated it ejects all docked ships from starbases and super bumps any ships out of a POS shield. It won't happen and I believe your posts are all trolling now. Not trolling. Putting things in perspective for you. Please tell me why this is so unreasonable EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2200	Posted - 2015.01.25 02:06:19 - [13] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: I disagree with the statement. Sorry. If it was just a mental issue, then there wouldnt be hundreds of pages of posts about it. Did you just say that because other people (not even the majority) think like you do it makes you right? Or that its not a mental issue, which case, what issue is it? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2206	Posted - 2015.01.27 02:55:21 - [14] - Quote Roxanne the broken game dynamic is having no way of creeping up on opponents undetected. Thats why you all run away, because you know cloaked ships are present when you shouldnt thanks to local. Perfect, flawless, Local. You want to change cloaks? change local with it. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2206	Posted - 2015.01.27 04:12:48 - [15] - Quote My statement says no such thing. in fact, it does the opposite. 'Change cloaks with local'. didnt you realise the reason afk cloaking happens is to get around local? havent you been reading? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2208	Posted - 2015.01.27 05:40:04 - [16] - Quote Rowells wrote: You dont need to afk cloak to kill people in null-space. Kills can and do happen on a regular basis without camping a system, and most importantly without a cloak. E: im speaking of ratter and miner kills specifically Afk cloakers get killed too. So either AFK cloakers make mistakes too, or you can effectively defend yourself with a bit of work. Or both. so we dont need to change anything. \o/ Roxanne Quall wrote: Yeah your statement does imply that changing cloaking go's hand in hand with Local and it's somehow the reason we should allow cloaking to be immune to anything All i'm asking is a way to get a general idea where they are with out ruining what people do with cloaking. You could still camp a system and would have a fun new interaction You could still avoid gate issues All im asking is a way to stalk a target without advertising my presence. The ONLY way to do that is to pretend to be AFK. The moment you have something that gets you my general whereabouts you'll know whether im AFK or not when you dont expose me. Thus still advertising my presence. You could still rat without knowing im there and would have a fun new interaction like WH players do. You could still defend yourself. Other players do just fine. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2209	Posted - 2015.01.27 07:47:23 - [17] - Quote Rowells my retort was deliberately as simplistic as yours. You dnt have to be afk cloaking to make kills, you dont have to break cloaks to defend against afk cloakers. If you'd like to know how to manipulate the intel a cloaky can get on a ratter, you can fit a cyno on the ratting ship... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2215	Posted - 2015.01.27 16:37:34 - [18] - Quote Yes the whole stealth and intel system is less than ideal. But unless you have a good proposal that changes the whole package then the status quo will remain. BlackHawk O'Boom wrote: Hiding shouldn't be the only option. I wanna Hunt it. We should be able to deffend a area of space that we own. Thats the Point of Sov Seriously your saying that a Huge Galactic empire should have no way of hunting people in there own owned space? That wouldn't happen So as long as the galactic empire has 100% fool proof, instantly updating, perfect, infallible intel on ships that are meant to be STEALTHED that forces us to hunt by pretending to be afk rather than how we want, You can be forced to hunt with bait and traps rather than hunt hunt like you want. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2221	Posted - 2015.01.27 19:07:24 - [19] - Quote Roxanne Quall wrote: Having Sovereignty in a system should be the counter to perma cloaked ships and the threat they pose with a cyno. Why shouldn't you have a way to get a search Area to go and fly around trying to find em. It's not going be easy with a active cloaked guy moving away from you as your searching for him. it would be like finding a moving live needle in a haystack. Having a cloak should be the counter to being advertised in local. Why shouldnt i have a way to get behind enemy lines to conduct covert operations without sticking out like a sore thumb? Roxanne Quall wrote: That doesn't make it so people can find your exact location. it would be a Sov mechanic so you would be fine in low sec and wormhole space doing anything you want and the only think this effects is Trolling sov renters. And you still could do that. In fact it would pull the guys outta there station just like some of you are complaining about That wouldnt make it so you cant rat and make money. You would be fine in low sec and high sec. The only thing this effects is entitled null bears and you can still rat in null sec. Many people do manage to rat in null despite cloaky campers in system. Brunik Rokbyter wrote: CCP, as a company designing games, has ALWAYS allowed for counters to any form of gameplay. The counter might just be common sense thinking or strategic planning... but it exists... ...Not because cloaking is OP, or other lame arguments, but because in this game nothing is free. No one is safe.... except for an afk pilot with a cloak, and pilots that are docked... Local intel is free, omnipotent, perfect, flawless, instant, colour coordinated and provides total safety. And correct a counter does exists, afk cloaking. glad you think something should be done about both rather than just one or that both should have their counters remain intact. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2225	Posted - 2015.01.27 19:38:06 - [20] - Quote Roxanne Quall wrote: All space ships would be fitted with basic scanning devices that gave you different degrees of data, Why wouldn't you know about the gates activating? In eve lore it's the gates that do Local it's the jovan gates that read your custom player ID, by activating the gate you give local data. Thus none in WH space. the game gives you a way outta local, it doesn't have anything for cloakers other than wait to be attacked. And a cloak would circumvent those scanners, otherwise its not really a cloak is it. The game gives many ways to combat afk cloakers, and you dont even have to move where you live. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2226	Posted - 2015.01.27 19:51:18 - [21] - Quote the term 'schrodingers hot dropper' has already been coined. you need to accept that cloaks are not the only flawed game mechanic. The perfect intel of local is part of this whether you like it or not. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2230	Posted - 2015.01.27 20:19:08 - [22] - Quote Roxanne Quall wrote: your game mechanic that you obviously hate is local, Eve gave you a solution. So your point is Mute And I've said time and time again to you that ships would have the technology to do d-scan and EVE has stated that local isn't just randomly good info it's part of the EVE Gate dynamic and you going into a gated system then they are set up to give everyones ships player ID's ... so you kinda signed on for that coming to known space You know what system your going to, if you want no local stay in WH space if you wana deal with it then the rest of eve is opened up. So you have the ablity to get rid of local already yet you choose not to. I wanna pvp the cloaked camper and there is nothing set up to do so. he gets to engage when he knows him and his buddy can win. It's a 100% safe situation for him and yet the only way for anyone to not get droped on is to just not play or go elsewhere. So you'd be ok with ships that enter a system by covert cyno or WH not showing up in local until they use a gate? cool. You knew what system you chose to rat in and you knew you couldnt detect cloaked ships. So you kinda signed on for that when you went to null. If you dont want afk cloakers, stay out of null sec. so you have the ability to get away from afk cloakers already. I wanna covertly stalk my targets and there is nothing set up to do so. My target gets to see me the instant i enter system, before i can even load. You get to dock up until you and your friends know you can win. Its a 100% safe situation for you and yet the only way to not get detected is to not play or go else where. Yes thats right, you just said that the cloaker has to go elsewhere for his gameplay, but you dont have to go else where to avoid afk cloakers because.....? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2230	Posted - 2015.01.27 20:23:48 - [23] - Quote Harry Saq wrote: The ALL or nothing approach to change management is another ridiculous argument (i.e. fix all things at once or don't touch it). If your ship is in space you are fair game. Pretty simple. Looking through that lens makes the conversation much easier. Thats a nice biased lens. Look through the: There shouldnt be a perfect intel tool that makes a mockery of covert play lens and the conversation becomes even easier. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2233	Posted - 2015.01.27 20:39:58 - [24] - Quote its seems simple to me that both need to be dealt with together, or the pendulum, as someone put it, swings too far one way or the other. hence the all or nothing argument. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2239	Posted - 2015.01.28 07:17:53 - [25] - Quote Brunik, i can see you are new to the afk cloaking debate. Here is some light reading you should do before you tell others what this is actually about: ISD LackOfFaith wrote: To emphasize: this thread is on the topic of balance, changes, or feedback on the mechanic of using a cloak. Posts outside this topic will be moderated/deleted. ISD LackOfFaith wrote: Edit: As reference the old AFK Cloaking Collection Thread Edit 2: Some closed but relatively recent threads on the subject for further reference. - What if Circadian Drones would detect afk cloaky campers - Cloaking Mechanic - Cloaks - Covert-Op's System Overload - A 3 player gamechanism to make a chance to decloak afk cloakies - 2 ideas, 1 thread - cloaking and high sec cynos - once upon a time there was a cloaky camper.... - Cloaky ships - Another ideal for better gameplay with sensors - sound/ELINT - Covops killing Destroyer - Smart Bomb to de-cloak - porbes that can detect cloaked ships? - Anti-UBoot warfare - Inactivity Timer: Log Out Campers and Paikis wrote: This thread comes up on almost a weekly basis. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a nerf cloaking thread in the first 2 pages on this forum section. Almost every single one of them goes like this: 1. OP posts a post with a new (lol) idea that always boils down to some variation of the following: - "There's a big meanie who is sitting in my system and not doing anything, but I don't know where he is and I can't ever just go next door. I can't find said meanie and even though I know that he's probably at work and poses no threat at all, I wont do anything in my system that I absolutely can't leave ever because he might not be at work and I might lose a ship. CCP please stop the meanie from being able to do nothing to me because he's probably at work" 2. Thread gets trolled because its been done literally to death. This horse has been beaten so hard and so often that it's little more than a memory of a memory of a red smear on the grass, and yet it STILL WONT DIE! In fact it's been done so many times that this particular horse is now undead; even if it does die, it will still be remembered and parodied. 3. Someone comes along and suggests that AFK cloakers can't hurt you, because they are, by their very definition, AFK. No one ever lost a ship to someone who ISN'T PLAYING THE GAME. 4. Someone else comes along and points out that while the cloaker might be AFK, he might not be, and so we have Schrodinger's Hot Dropper. The cyno pilot who might be AFK... but he might not be as well, and you will only know for sure when he decloaks, points and lights his candle. (Yes, I know this isn't how the cat works) 5. Someone else comes along and suggests that you use bait and setup a TARP. Or have a defence fleet on standby. Heaven forbid you have to actually fight to defend your space. 6. A further person comes along and suggests that the problem isn't cloaking AFK in your system that you can't possibly leave ever, but that you KNOW that the person is AFK in your system... and perhaps local should be removed because free 100% accurate intel is probably not the best thing in the game and if you didn't know that the big meanie was in your system, you wouldn't be worried about leaving the undock/POS. 7. Then another person pokes their head in and complains that local is 100% NEEDED because D-Scan and probing are such bad mechanics, and IF YOU TAKE MY LOCAL AWAY IM QUITTING FOREVER AND NO YOU CAN'T HAVE MY STUFF! 8. Someone asks if they can hav... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2240	Posted - 2015.01.28 17:36:02 - [26] - Quote Brunik Rokbyter wrote: I want to discuss the core mechanic on the debate table because the true root of the issue is something EVERONE around here is dodging. Correction. You are dodging that there is much more to this than an afk person. it really is as simple as that. Join the conversation the rest of us is having. Roxanne Quall wrote: No ones asking cloaking be ripped out. It just needs tweeking. You will still have the ability to gather intel and plan your PvE stomping mission. So 'tweak' local with it. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2244	Posted - 2015.01.29 05:17:36 - [27] - Quote Roxanne Quall wrote: Cloaks were not introduced to counter Locals' intel. No AFK cloaking was. Roxanne Quall wrote: And EVE gave you a way to rid your self of Local, it's called a WormHole. Your point is Mute, EVE has given you that ability and place where local doesn't exists Eve gave you a way to get away from AFK cloakers. its called low, WH and high sec. Your point is mute, EVE has given you that ability and place where afk cloaking does not exist. Roxanne Quall wrote: In it's state a cloak is not counter-able. Many forms of syfy where the idea of a cloak came from in the 1st place has things to counter them. In its state local is only counterable by afk cloaking. No forms of sci-fi have a omnipotent intel system, and only literal gods in sci-fi have the same power as local. Roxanne Quall wrote: The idea that if you un-dock your at risk isn't true with cloaks. And gate camps don't do 1 thing to a cloaked ship in system. The idea that if you un-dock your at risk isnt true with null sec local. And cloaks on their own dont do 1 thing to local. Roxanne Quall wrote: ""Without uncertainty, we are simply playing a fancy MOBA in space."" You could not of said it better, the cloaked player needs "uncertainty" about his 100% safty as it is now As long as the ratter keeps 'uncertainty' about my presence. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2245	Posted - 2015.01.29 16:54:03 - [28] - Quote Roxanne Quall wrote: Only the cloaked player is safe in space. You just trying to drive logic into the mud with the same loop. This is a lie. When a ratter has no one else in local, he is 100% safe in space. The ratter knows this and there is no uncertainty. The ratter is also even able to make isk during these situations, something a cloaked player cant do. There is only risk to a ratter in space when an unknown enters system and appears clear as day in local. At which point, many of you dock up. So you are still not risking anything despite living in one of the most dangerous areas of the game and making ridiculous amounts of isk. AFK cloakers bring the risk to your fat rewards. If you cant see that, you cant see past your own bias. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2248	Posted - 2015.01.30 03:12:22 - [29] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Try dropping the passive aggressive tone. It honestly works better for posting. And it really isnt a lie. A cloaked player has subtantially more safety than a ratter. You have to remember, ratters are engaged with NPC ships. Of course its assumed they are well fitted to kill them but that isnt always the case, not everyone can drop a carrier in and go ratting while the drones kill things. Not saying there isnt some truth in your statement but your own bias is effecting your point of view as well. There is more chance of an AFK cloaker being accidentally decloaked by someone making a safe than there is a ratter being engaged by a player whilst there is no one else in system. The danger presented by rats to the ratter is so low, everyone rightfully considers it negligible. Harry Saq wrote: The intel deprivation counter to local argument is an insufficient argument in terms of weight to both encouraging players to login but not actually interact with the game, and the idea of assets in space being at risk. intel deprivation as a counter to local < encouraging in-game afk activity (not part of any game design vision or rational behavior = illogical) + risk to assets in space (interaction) AFK - Away From Keyboard = logged in, not playing or interacting with the game in anyway If "intel deprivation as a counter to local" is truly the stated intention for keeping the cloaking mechanic the way it is (which it is clear and stated numerous times by multiple people that it is) then you are using your presence (AFK or not) to exert influence on your environment and those in it, specifically by using local to essentially plant a flag (if you argue this point you are simply not being honest and slow deathing us all). Regardless of whether this belongs in a "remove local" debate or not, it is clear that the AFK cloaker is intending to use their toon to influence others in the game. It is perfectly legitimate to use your presence in local while in space SO LONG as the player is active and engaged in the actual game (i.e. PLAYING). If the user has no intention of interacting with the game while desiring to influence others ingame activity, and gain an advantage over time using this inactivity (i.e. desensitizing others to their presence so that once the AFK player eventually becomes active, can use that desensitized state to either gain intel, transmit intel, drop a cyno, or engage another player by surprise) then that player should be subject to the same consequences as any other player with an asset in space and not paying attention. This can be done by simple mechanics that would encourage the user to maintain some form of reasonable vigilance that would require basic and normal interaction with the game. The most elegant and non-intrusive ways to achieve this would be to limit the amount of time a player can maintain a cloak through some form of resource consumption (simple module cycle using a charge that needs to be reloaded at some point like ammo) AND/OR be detectable in some way through some form of action or effort by another player beyond simple proximity to decloak (i.e. active scanning/probing). In this way, the goal of achieving "intel deprivation" has remained unaffected and player interaction with both each other and the game have been supported and encouraged. CCP has stated numerous ways that they desire player driven content and mechanics that create emergent gameplay. This does both while achieving the objective of keeping players engaged in the actual game while their toons are logged in and undocked. So players shouldnt be able to dock for the same amount of time. cool beans. Harry Saq wrote: Any mechanic that encourages player inactivity (and I am not talking about ratters or miners) is a bad mechanic. Any argument that player inactivity should be encouraged or is a good thing is illogical. Arguing against local and then using local to show that local is no good in support of not altering the bad mechanic is also illogical and circular. The local debate is that way -> If local were gone tomorrow the arguments against perpetual cloaking at no cost or vulnerability remain valid. If local were announced as never going away by CCP, mechanics encouraging inactivity would logically be designed away from in favor of active gameplay. ...and again, the local debate is that way -> Local encourages afk cloaking. so it should be altered? good idea If local was altered tomorrow then cloaks should also be altered tomorrow. Finally you've come around... Harry Saq wrote: Nikk Narrel wrote: AFK Cloaking does not equal player inactivity. AFK Cloaking is by definition inactivity. If they are afk then why do people dock up? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2248	Posted - 2015.01.30 03:13:38 - [30] - Quote clipper shore wrote: This is mainly where the players in system knows he is afk but cannot go about their daily activites because of it . If you know they are afk then why cant you go about your daily activities? clipper shore wrote: we are talking about AFK CLOAKERS Wrong. Please read. Accept that these topics should be dealt with as a whole, if at all. If Local, covert operations, intel, cyno's etc etc were off topic the ISD would be removing ALL of my posts. Feel free to join the conversation the rest of us are having. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2248	Posted - 2015.01.30 03:25:55 - [31] - Quote Harry Saq wrote: Please join the more direct and purposeful conversation; actual cloaking mechanics. direct as in tunnel visioned. purposeful as in with the agenda of breaking game balance. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2252	Posted - 2015.01.30 15:11:26 - [32] - Quote Harry Saq wrote: If you have even begun to read the last two days worth of commentary on this, you would know that none of that accurately reflects anything I have said on the subject. Your statements are willful ignorance: Example 1 Example 2 Example 3 Example 4 should look up willful ignorance. I am in fact including everything in my arguments and am one of the few not pretending that afk cloaking and local are not directly connected, when it comes to null. You cannot deny that the practice of afk cloaky camping is a direct result of local. You cannot deny that afk cloaking is not an issue outside of null because local loses value in those areas. But what you are instead trying to do is restrict the argument to only one minor factor. You ARE tunnel visioned, thats also undeniable, and you are in such a way that i can only guess its with a specific purpose of breaking game balance in your favour. Daichi Yamato wrote: aka willful ignorance. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2254	Posted - 2015.01.31 23:45:23 - [33] - Quote Harry Saq wrote: It is almost humorous that you reached that conclusion, even after I dropping point by point examples (so as not to repeat what you may not have read) of where I have laid out how the mechanics can be logically isolated and actionable resolutions can occur allowing for multiple outcomes (yours included, which is to remove local). I am not over simplifying, but rather creating points of discussion for actionable resolution and rational modifications to cloaking mechanics in order to promote active (non-AFK) game play. I have played since '03, local has always been here. Choosing to filibuster with a mind set only on getting rid of local when it has a very low probability of going away (which I think it should) is by definition tunnel visioning. That is why I define each scenario to frame actionable outcomes. So I too have considered all aspects, and framed arguments accordingly, I even break down the rationale as to why aspects are good and bad based on the types of activity (or non-activity) they lead to in a GAME meant to be actively played. Your response pre-supposes I don't comprehend your ONE issue, when I have clearly addressed it ad-nauseam and argued for it while providing alternative solutions based on CCPs most likely and historic response (local is there, deal). Which is also why I encourage a separate in-depth hardcore thread on "Rise Up Player Base and get CCP to Remove Local" that would be similarly stickied. A better example of tunnel visioning would be to pretend that you can't talk about cloaking mechanics beyond the "counter to local intel" aspect. I now realise you havent even been reading my posts... Throughout the entirety of this thread ive not once said 'remove local'. And the reason we cant get past afk cloaking being the counter to local is because others cant admit the two are so connected. They CANNOT be logically isolated when one is the direct cause of the other. I feel compelled to fill in the gaps of discussions others are deliberately leaving out. It has never been the case that i cannot talk about cloaking beyond the 'counter to local intel'. It has always been the case that i encourage everyone to think about covert operations and intel as a whole and when advocating any change, to consider all the factors. The four posts you linked says nothing about why these two should be separated. They are a long winded way of saying 'inactivity is bad because its bad' and 'circular arguments are bad'. (hilarious btw). Roxanne Quall wrote: The way it is set up you got a really cheap set up and possible loss vs huge rewards and powerful force projection. so the risk vs reward factor is Way outta wack when compared to all other EVE mechanics. Like making hundreds of millions of isk under the safety of local. Null is widely considered safer than low, and some will even say safer than high. Risk vs reward 'outta wack'. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2267	Posted - 2015.02.12 01:13:07 - [34] - Quote wildlighting wrote: IF you are an active pilot, almost all of the suggestions made in this thread would have very little impact on your functions. Amazingly enough the only person that would be truly effected would be the AFK camper. Imagine that. Or someone attempting to *appear* AFK. Thats what you're not getting. If i cant appear to be inactive at the same time as being undetectable, my targets can quickly discover whether im either active, easily disposed of or how long i can stick around. The only uncertainty is how much time the cloaker can remain in system before being destroyed or forced to leave. All the while ratters stay safe indefinitely. The ratters are even told the moment i leave and that its safe to rat. They are also told the moment i return and that they should dock again. Im all for removing the complete safety of cloaks, but at the same time something needs to be done about local. Or just leave it all as it is. wildlighting wrote: As for AFK camping not existing in low and high. Well that has less to do with being expected and having everything to do with the fact that there is consequences for actions up there. In high sec if you gank someone, Concord pays you a visit. Low sec does fall into that area or expected violence however the fact that an AFK camper cant target a specific group is more likely why its not an issue up there. Like I said. I feel that the campers are trying to be trolls to specific groups and they know they can cause there is nothing those people can do about it. No,there would be nothing stopping me targeting a specific group in low sec. Many low sec groups are not nomadic. AFK camping does not happen in low and high because of the expectations of neutrals in local chat. - In high, you have the protection of CONCORD and on top of that neutrals are so common players dont even pay them any attention. You can afk cloak during a war dec however....because you are highlighted as a threat in local. - In low, the neutral cloaker can dock up anywhere, cloak up anywhere, cant be bubbled etc etc. The amount of work required to combat a cloaker in low is so high that you may as well just rat with the expectation of PvP, or go else where. In fact, low sec ratters are so uncommon, such small fish, so alert and so content with flying PvP ready or leaving, AFK cloaking low sec systems is often not worth the cloakers time. - In null, the inability for non-friendlies to easily travel through null because of bubble camps and docking rights etc encourages an expectation of safety to the ratter. They expect to be able to rat safely despite the fact that a neutral in null is just as much a threat as a neutral in low sec. The perceived danger is that much lower than in low sec, they rat in pure PvE fit battleships or AFKtars. This means; big fish, occasional low attentiveness, dont work together, risk aversion etc etc AFK cloaking is far more effective and worth while against such players. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2267	Posted - 2015.02.12 06:58:33 - [35] - Quote wildlighting wrote: No, Daichi. I do understand that completely. Though with the current mechanics of EVE there is no way to tell if a player is AFK or not if they are sitting in a system cloaked. So that is a bit of junk logic. The only way you would be able to tell if someone was afk would be after some form of detection system was put in place. As it stands now, they could be warping all over the place but unless they engage a target, it could easily be assumed they are afk. This is exactly my point. The only way to remove the black and white choice of dock or rat is to create an uncertainty that the threat is active or afk. That is why the current system works, in a crappy stalemate sort of way. A far better way would be not making cloaks so blatant in local but at the same time allowing them to be actively hunted. wildlighting wrote: Quote: The only uncertainty is how much time the cloaker can remain in system before being destroyed or forced to leave. All the while ratters stay safe indefinitely. The ratters are even told the moment i leave and that its safe to rat. They are also told the moment i return and that they should dock again. This is a junk statement. There is nothing that can force a camper to leave a system. They and only they can make that choice. This while literally un true, in all practical senses, whilst under the pressure of being decloaked, it is only a matter of time before the cloaker makes his play or leaves. or do you expect it to be good gameplay for a cloaker to warp from safe to safe for 23.5 hours a day? It would be bad for balance if the cloaker can be put under pressure whilst ratters still get what is essentially a red light/green light as to whether its safe to rat or not. wildlighting wrote: Yourself, Mags, Nikk, Jenn, and others have made the statement that miners/ratters can stay safe forever. This is also junk. Many have pointed out that the anchored items in null can be destroyed and sov in a system can be lost. Why is this so hard a concept to realize. A pos can be destroyed. A systems sov can be taken over, and assist in that system can change hands. Though it takes time, none of those things are forever. Ironically the only way they could be safe forever is if they were cloaked. Same again. Literally speaking, sure. When it comes to practical applications...no. For example: Stations do not eject you even when stations change hands. They are literally '100% safe.' But that doesnt mean docking at such a station is the best course of action when a dread fleet is inbound because you could end up getting stuck. A second example: Cloaks are not 100% safe. It is entirely possible to accidentally bump into one whilst making a safe, or deliberately decloak someone with drones, smart bombs etc etc. But as this is so unlikely to happen, people say it is 100% safe. In a similar way the sov mechanics, HP and reinforce timer of a POS make it an impractical objective for an afk cloaker. It takes an entirely different kind of approach to take out a POS, and because of that, POS's in deep sov space are for all intents and purposes, invulnerable. Our 'junk' statements merely bypass what everyone else knows from common sense. Thus; If the POS being destructable is a valid point, then make cloaky detection work on the same timescale. If you want a scanner that detects cloak, make the amount of time it takes to find a cloaker 36 hours. This makes the cloaker as vulnerable as someone in a POS... wildlighting wrote: Almost every argument is just the different side of the same coin. I have tried to explain many times: Local and afk cloaking are basically opposite and equals, ying and yang. For every argument for/against cloaking there is one for/against local. This is why i am determined that either nothing be changed or both be changed at the same time. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2268	Posted - 2015.02.13 03:18:08 - [36] - Quote wildlighting wrote: Please explain to me, how anything can put pressure on a cloaked ship? The only possible way would be at a gate and several people have already pointed out that is the most dangerous time for a cloak ship, or any ship for that matter. Those are also situations outside the topic of AFK cloaking. Making cloaks probable would put pressure on cloaked ships. wildlighting wrote: You dont want my ideas cause they are drastic. And by your own admission, self serving. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2271	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:10:42 - [37] - Quote wildlighting wrote: it does point out what several PVE players have said on this forum in regards to cloak. There is no way to pressure them unless there is some form of detection system. Unless I have read things wrong, it would seem to them that an imbalance in the game already exists and they wish to fix that. The pressure that would be applied to a cloak ship through a probe would be massively disproportionate compared to the pressure an afk cloaker and even his gang could put onto a docked or POS's up ratter. This would make a mockery of covert play as the uncertainty of whether im active or not is essential to AFK cloaking. If they can probe me down, i must move to survive. This movement will be very noticeable, and there would be no uncertainty as to my activity when they uncloak me or dont. They can dock up, knowing its only a matter of time for them to get a gang together that can pressure the cloaker until RL or boredom/frustration means he has to leave or log off. Meanwhile the ratters can remain docked up *indefinitely. Its too one sided for the defenders to just make cloaks probable. It destroys the concept of cloaking to slip behind enemy lines and attack the alliance resource gatherers. If you want to make cloaks huntable, you have seriously got to consider preserving the ability to conduct covert attacks on enemy supply lines (which is a good gameplay concept regardless of the actual mechanic). wildlighting wrote:* Can you explain to me what difference it makes if my ideas are self serving or not? I am not offering a solution, as I think one does not exist OR if one did it would require far more than what is being talked about here on the forums. Of course if you are trying to use that as some form of personal attack. Well I just laugh at you, cause it was a very poor one. Nearly. But its a flag when you admit your own suggestion was as self serving (one sided) as you did. Good gameplay and mechanics would hopefully serve the many, not just one person or career. Im referring to the suggestion that all cloaks just be removed. Its not only drastic, but removes good gameplay as well as is arguably short sighted. You probably wouldnt sell as much when less is being destroyed by cloaky hunters because everyone can see everything coming for them on D-scan and local. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2275	Posted - 2015.02.16 19:11:44 - [38] - Quote wildlighting wrote: Get over it. Get over what? this? Daichi Yamato wrote: wildlighting wrote: You dont want my ideas cause they are drastic. And by your own admission, self serving. Daichi Yamato wrote: wildlighting wrote: Can you explain to me what difference it makes if my ideas are self serving or not? Its a flag when you admit your own suggestion was as self serving (one sided) as you did. Good gameplay and mechanics would hopefully serve the many, not just one person or career. devastated EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2275	Posted - 2015.02.16 19:13:38 - [39] - Quote wildlighting wrote: This brings up a rather interesting question. Where a station was always designed to be a safety net for people living in Sov Null, it would be interesting to hear what CCP has to say if a cloak was ever designed to be the crutch it has become. The argument that a station is like a cloak in that it can provide safety indefinitely is just junk. Unlike a cloak, the pilots position is know. Unlike a cloak, the pilot is unable to just leave whenever they wish. Undocking could lead to a quick death. Unlike a cloak, the pilot is limited on the intel they can get. Unlike a cloak, the pilot can not setup an attack on another player. AFK Cloak is not the same as AFK in a station. So now its not 'nothing should be safe' instead its 'CCP says docking should be safe but cloaks are a grey area. Lets push that'. When in fact i dont think CCP have ever said either are meant to be absolute safety, nor have they said either are meant to be vulnerable. They have said, however, that cloaks come with draw backs of either a gimped fit or, in the case of covert cloaks, only allowed to be fit on weaker ships and are therefore balanced and working as intended. I did not say cloak is like a station in every way. Just the absolute indefinite safety, which is not junk by any meaning of the word. Even you have to admit that. - Saying a cloaker can leave whenever they wish but the docked pilot cant is a junk statement. The docker must be camped to provide risk to his exit, and you can camp gates for cloakers just the same. - A cloaked player cannot know where a docked player is unless he saw his target dock. The cloaked player cannot dock to check if his target is part of the guests and wouldnt know if his target is docked or also cloaked. - Unlike docking up, the cloaked player cannot change ships or fit. A docked player can deliberately alter his fit to resist a cloaker or even fit as bait for a counter cyno. The AFK cloaker cannot tell which, if any, until it is too late. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2278	Posted - 2015.02.18 07:29:25 - [40] - Quote Haywood, with your example i agree it shows that cloaking is not always involved with local (Even though the cloaker could have left system through a WH and you would have only known this when he disappeared from local but not watch list). But your example does not separate the relationship local has with afk cloaky camping. Every criticism you have against the cloaker is applicable to null ratters. This might be childish, but not irrelevant. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: With every gate camped, ships ready to fight all the player had to do was walk away from the computer and was safe. All he had to do was wait. 12 people, trying to find one ship. like a docked ratter waiting for someone to leave local. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: The fact that if someone gets trapped in a system and they can just walk away from their computer without logging off. I find this to be a flaw Like a docked ratter waiting for someone to leave local. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Yea the fact that the player can just walk away from the computer and be perfectly safe for an indefinite, WHILE being actively hunted. Like a docked ratter waiting for someone to leave local. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Their safety is COMPLETELY based on the cloak. Without they would be dead. Without it they couldnt just sit in space and wait forever. Their safety is COMPLETELY based on the local. Without they would be dead. Without it they couldnt just sit in station and wait forever. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Are you serious? He is in a covops ship with the possibility of having a covops cyno. He might not be able to change ships but he sure as hell can bring in a lot more. They had more options than avoid the encounter. Are you serious? He is in a station in friendly space with the possibility of having any ship in the game and hundreds if not thousands of potential friends including his own cyno. He might not be very skilled in PvP but he sure as hell can bring in a lot more friends more quickly than a cloaker can with his cyno. He had more options than avoid the encounter. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2282	Posted - 2015.02.19 04:38:28 - [41] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: baltec1 wrote: How exactly is afk camping bullying someone? I dont think it really is. Though I can see how it could easily frustrate people enough to move back to High sec. Or quit the entire game apparently. you can rat in high sec, rat in low sec, rat in WH space, but if you cant rat in null sec you may as well quit the whole game...wtf? Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Now many will say that cloak is doing the same thing and in a sense, yes it is. Cloak works fine for the most part, however I am not convienced that CCP intended cloak to be used in the fashion it is being used, in regards to AFK cloaking. Just not sure CCP ever meant for someone to sit in a system for months. I kind of view AFK cloaking as something similar to spawn camping in the FPS world. Yea you can do it and you will get kills, but its a cheap tactic and kind of looked down on. Am glad you didnt think it childish. <3 Im pretty confident CCP didnt intend cloaks to be used for afk cloaky camping, and im pretty confident they intended station and even POS's to be a reasonable safe haven. But i am also very confident that they did not intend for local to be used as an intel tool that could tell ratters when it is safe to rat or not. I dont want to be able to eject people from stations. I dont want the reasonable expectation of safety from stations altered. I do want the expectation of safety from local intel modified . I consider this just as much a cheap tactic as cloaky camping and spawn camping. fyi, i have no issue with people using cheap tactics, even ones i dont use myself. Alls fair in love and war and do what you have to to win. But that also doesnt mean the game cant be made better by altering cheap tactics and/or the game play surrounding them. Just make sure its balanced at the end of it all. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2283	Posted - 2015.02.20 07:19:15 - [42] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Nikk wrote: You seem to think the reward index in null is related to the difficulty of the NPC threats Wait... That is exactly how it works in null. no this is not exactly how it works. - The payouts of NPC ratting in null are not high because the NPC's pose a threat. - The payouts of null moon mining is not high because NPC's are going to come along and take your POS. (yet) - The payouts of null mining belts are not high because the NPC belt rats are an obstacle. - The anchoring of an intensive refining array only allowable outside of hi-sec has nothing to do with any NPC behavior. - The tax of NPC stations for industry has nothing to do with any lack of threat from NPC's. The only area (that i can think of) where NPC difficulty and threat is the exact cause of higher rewards in any area of space is burner missions. Not even the rewards incursions give out can be said to be exactly because of NPC danger. They payout of null (or any area of space) has so much more to do with being balanced by the expected competition between and threat of other players than any NPC activity. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Player threat should never be discounted but how you are tying them into the reward system of null, I dont completely understand. By putting things that are rare, bountiful and powerful in space where PvP is most unrestricted (to avoid using the term dangerous space) competition, supply and demand then does the rest. Officer this or that would be worthless if they spawned from every high sec belt rat. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: This is just a lie. A group is a great way to defend against an AFK cloaker when they choose to act but it is not a counter. As it has been pointed out and you keep ignoring. If a cloak camper is presented with a group, they just go back to being afk and wait for that group to leave. This is not a counter. This is just delaying things. So the group prevents the AFK cloaker from doing his job...that is a counter. It only ceases to become a counter when you cease to work together. And your also assuming the cloaker knows about the group, but anyone can carry a cyno. I insist that working as a group counters afk cloaking quite effectively. But it may be a rare occurrence for null ratters to work together because afk cloaking is far from rife and the expectation to rat safely alone and make billions is really quite high. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2283	Posted - 2015.02.20 07:26:47 - [43] - Quote Terraniel Aurelius wrote: The cloaker's intentions are irrelevant. I am only dealing with the effect on gameplay as a whole. The fact that their intentions are unknown means that one has to assume worst possible scenario. If you do not, you are likely to lose a ship(s). This discussion is only in the context of AFK (read:LONG TERM) cloaking. The problem isn't what happens when they jump into local but when they stay there for hours on end. I only need to stay there for hours on end to make you lose whatever certainty you have about my activity. If you could not see me so clearly i wouldnt have a need to stay for hours on end to create risk. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2286	Posted - 2015.02.20 17:33:22 - [44] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Not sure how this is relates to AFK Cloaking Cause the reward of ratting in null needs the risk provided by players to balance it. The only way to provide that risk at the moment is to afk cloak. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Quote: So the group prevents the AFK cloaker from doing his job...that is a counter. AFK cloaker is a term refered to someone already in a system and just camping. If you are refering to a counter to normal cloak movement then yes, however a fleet makes no difference to an AFK Cloaker. Like I already said. A fleet makes no difference to a cloaker being in system. this is true. But as people are so eager to point out, the problem of an afk cloaker is not that he is just in system, its what he does when he uncloaks and comes after you (cyno or bomber etc) that they dont like. This is most definitely counterable, or at least able to be mitigated by group play. So working in groups empowers you to rat whilst an afk cloaker is in system and be much less vulnerable while you do it. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Nikk. You do understand that if a fleet is present that no cloak will take any action. Thus the threat is neutralised and they can all rat unmolested. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2287	Posted - 2015.02.21 04:00:27 - [45] - Quote Haywood you said yourself, an afk cloaker is NEVER going to attack as long as a fleet is around. A threat that is made insignificant, (I.e. Never going to happen) is neutralized. So whats the problem with this? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2287	Posted - 2015.02.22 00:04:50 - [46] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Haywood you said yourself, an afk cloaker is NEVER going to attack as long as a fleet is around. A threat that is made insignificant, (I.e. Never going to happen) is neutralized. So whats the problem with this? The problem I see with this, is that it is suddenly expected for a group to maintain a fleet to defend against one player. Unlike someone invading where a proper response can be made, even in the short term of someone sitting around for hours or even days, I find it unbalanced and unreasonable to expect this to be the norm for weeks or months. That is where I see the problem. A camper expends 0 effort at all while in system, yet is expected that the defending group should maintain a constant vigil, day and night. Edit: And a small threat is still a threat. Like I said. It's never neutralized with the current system. It is not expected. ive said before that its barely practiced because AFK cloakers are a non-issue for so many people. its just the price of extra safety. And just like a camper expends no effort to project an affect, a ratter expends no effort to get his intel from local. they both are less than fun and they both should change, or neither should change. A small threat is still a threat true. But under no circumstance, mechanic or system should there ever be exactly no threat. I dont think you are here to tell me you should be able to rat perfectly safely by throwing more fleet members at a problem. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2293	Posted - 2015.02.22 16:17:11 - [47] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Quote: A small threat is still a threat true. But under no circumstance, mechanic or system should there ever be exactly no threat. I dont think you are here to tell me you should be able to rat perfectly safely by throwing more fleet members at a problem. Changing cloak to eliminate the potential for 100% safety in space would not create a 100% safe environment in null. You know this, and so does everyone else. I have even shown this with direct evidence. But it does still increases the safety of ratting. something that is already very safe thanks to local. Remember, every criticism you have had of cloakers is easily applied to ratting under the safety of local. Change one. Change the other with it. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2295	Posted - 2015.02.23 03:28:14 - [48] - Quote - Though a cloaker can use various techniques to make him harder to catch or counter, it is still quite possible to do. - a cloak is only as good as its user. You can mess up when passing through gates or when trying to attack someone. - on the other hand, docking is a game mechanic that people can use to achieve 100% safety. Though balanced in areas where we can use local against them by cloaking in system for hours or days, they are 100% safe when docked. Even in my sig i quote what CCP has said about how there is no safe are where you cant be attacked. However, when docked you can completely avoid combat and are even helped to know exactly when it is safe to undock thanks to local. - you could be down to 10% hull and if you manage to reach the docking perimiter or slow boat into a POS you are not only safe but also LOCKS ARE BROKEN and POINT IS LOST. thats even safer than cloaking. -The relative safety of ratting in null is a valid argument against any changes to cloak seeing how closely the two compete with eachother and how often they are discussed together (by devs and CSM, not just us). The two are intertwined whether you like it or not. Ratting in null is safe enough and makes more than enough money (CCP have even commented on the ridiculous amount of isk null ratting injects into the game) with afk cloaking in its current form. You cannot claim that nerfing cloaks does not buff ratting. you cannot slap your ear and rain-man over this particular point. Its a valid argument, period. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2298	Posted - 2015.02.24 12:00:33 - [49] - Quote @haywood: The ESS was intended to be a deployable that enabled group play in null PvE (something that doesnt happen much), at the same time as putting that increased income into a position it is at risk. During which CCP soni clover said this. Note that this is not to say null ratting income was over powered. just that the bounties injected 'insane' amounts of isk into the game. Im not trying to argue that isk payments for null ratting is too much. im trying to say that the peril of other players coming a long and hurting you is good healthy gameplay. And by nerfing the ability to hunt ratters, you will allow ratters to rat for longer with less interruption, buffing rewards that dont need buffing and at the same time maybe inflating the market.. Apparently null bounties are sensitive stuffs. Also during the CSM 9's summer minutes in the Null sec session (page 55), the CSM and CCP are discussing an occupancy based sov (simply a system where you hold sov by doing what i assume is PvE stuff). It is mentioned that sov is attacked by preventing the occupiers from operating. AFK cloaking is brought up shortly after this point: Quote: Mynnna- It went beyond that. It would prevent all of the CFC can use all of our space. If you open a treaty with someone else who had space the costs go up. Another topic to discuss, as CCP Fozzie said, it is hard to do that much damage but are you going to do something about AFK Cloaking. It is there and it is the only significant way to do that much damage and there is nothing you can do proactively. . CCP Fozzie- We have said in the past that we want there to be more interesting gameplay there. AFK cloaking, however, is an entirely social form of power. To me, it is the equivalent of posting on the forums until someone stops ratting. It has the same physical impact in many ways. Both have strong value. Both could be done with better game play. WeGÇÖd like to give you better active game play to chase down someone cloaking just as weGÇÖd like to give you the ability to put bounties on the forums. Mynnna- It is fine that you can disrupt ratters but it is how it works. Then there is talk of cyno's as well and CCP mentioning how local comes into this dynamic as well. So we arent the only ones that consider them together. Finally CCP fozzie also mentions how null sec bounties bring large amounts of isk into the game: Quote: Sion Kumitomo- WeGÇÖve had entire alliances motivated by the size of their name on the map. Economically speaking, living in null sec is not the best route to becoming ridiculously wealthy. Most of our people use alts to make money or we give them money through the alliance. CCP Fozzie- That being said I do still believe that is being a bit overstated. Considering so much of the actual ISK in the game is from null sec bounties. A lot more people are making their money in null sec. Sion Kumitomo- Are there numbers? CCP Fozzie- Bounties are way up You should read the whole session yourself as ive had to cut this up a bit to save the wall of text, and i dont want it to be taken as attempted distortion. im glad you've suggested changes to local along side cloaking, but then every now and then you drop things like this: Haywoud Jablomi wrote: The relative safety of ratting in null is not a valid argument against any changes to cloak, as null was never designed to be a dangerous place. And i feel like we have to start over again... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2300	Posted - 2015.02.25 03:31:28 - [50] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Solid truth about the issue is that there are justifications on both sides why things should and shouldnt change. The links you provided shows that CCP isnt overly happy with the situation but I get the impression they really dont know how to change it. I have said this so many times before but I wish I had a way to show people how I have seen stealth done in other games. I think if people saw it they could easily use the idea to adapt for usage in EVE. There is one thing we know. Any serious attempt at creating stealth gameplay is going to involve altering local. Any serious attempt at balancing that is going to involve altering cloaks and quite likely cyno's too (beyond jump fatigue i suspect). With the way occupancy sov appears to be planned to work, afk cloaking in its current form will be more powerful than it is now. But then again, it strongly encourages players to work together in condensed systems, and as far as i can tell, thats the intended goal of occupancy sov and the jump drive changes. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2306	Posted - 2015.03.04 17:38:17 - [51] - Quote Grasor wrote: This has nothing to do with local chat. Forget local chat. Even if local chat did not exist and the perp would still be indefinitely cloaked in a system s/he would still be completely undetectable forever. That's a game mechanic that is incongruent with with the basic element of the game. Everyone and everything is fair game - except if your cloaked. If it wasnt for local he wouldnt spend hours sitting in your system waiting for you to feel safe. this has everything to do with local chat. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2316	Posted - 2015.03.06 15:48:08 - [52] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: Quote: 3. Without local, no AFK cloaking takes place, as how will the victims know to be afraid if local doesn't tell them? I have been saying since the beginning of this thread that this mentality is false. You can not use this as a valid argument for your side when you know that removing local would create a HUGE imbalance in the game overall and it would destroy null. If local didnt advertise my presence so blatently, id be much less inclined to sit in a system for upto a week in an attempt to numb my targets to my presence, and much more inclined to actively roam and hunt. Under the current system, actively hunting puts me at a disadvantage because everyone can see me and knows i am active. My best hopes of getting the jump on my enemy is to appear inactive. So i hang around in a system for days, apparently doing nothing. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2318	Posted - 2015.03.10 10:48:31 - [53] - Quote Ramases Purvanen wrote: CCP IS TURNING THE GAME TO SHT, simple! All they care about atm is the NPE and not the current player base... Save your money and play something else that wont get nerfed to the ground every month you skill into something. That way you cant be dissapointed every patch. I thought with patches you were meant to be excited for the patch. Not the other way round. ha ha, Removing local is for the benefit of NPE? care to explain? If local is removed, it doesnt turn the game to ***, it in fact makes it better. Perhaps its just your playstyle that has been cancerous to the game and encouraged its stagnation, which is why it may now be getting the finger. Locals removal would be another change that encourages focusing activity into a smaller area and playing as a team, two prioritised design goals of CCP right now. The fact is, however, that nothing is confirmed/denied, including whether any balance changes to null sec rewards, cloaking or cynos are also in the works. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2319	Posted - 2015.03.10 17:16:28 - [54] - Quote Roxanne Quall wrote: If you like the idea of no local, then oh wait guess what?? CCP made WH space for you. And there not the same Still spouting this BS when you can goto high sec where there are no cloaky campers... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2321	Posted - 2015.03.11 16:02:22 - [55] - Quote Roxanne Quall wrote: stop with this "Schr+¦dinger's cat" Crap omg. Just to clarify to you, were talking about someone who was AFK cloaked becomes active at any time and can Cyno. If local was removed then people would still required a way to hunt cloaks. And Yeah it's not a problem in WH space because they can't Cyno in a crap ton of support in there. So it's completely different. Why would i go afk for weeks in a system when i can move around and actively hunt you when i no longer appear in local. You said yourself, its not the guy going afk for hours thats the probelm, its the guy that goes afk for weeks and weeks. That no longer happens the moment local is removed. The only reason i go afk cloaked when theres no local is to go take a ****. This does not take weeks. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2325	Posted - 2015.03.15 11:35:16 - [56] - Quote Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: The root discussion point is that we first should all agree that no-one should be able to exert a meta force in game without actively playing. Its not exerted. The danger of someone sitting in local and doing nothing else is entirely inferred. Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: Again, the real question is why hasn't CCP implemented this obvious fix already, or provided compelling rationale as to why a player should still be allowed to exert meta forces on game play without actually being there... F Because being able to appear afk whilst not actually being afk is important. unless you change local that is. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2339	Posted - 2015.03.17 16:29:14 - [57] - Quote Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: 76 pages, when the answer is so simple (it really is). F So the mere fact that im logged in advertises to everyone in local that ive been present at my keyboard in the last 5 minutes? No. Not unless you change local. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2351	Posted - 2015.03.20 02:52:27 - [58] - Quote Haywoud Jablomi wrote: I think you are ignoring the fact peoples stream like DaOpa's proves pretty much everything people have been saying about AFK cloaking. He is sitting in war zones and has very little danger of losing anything. The stream also proves pretty much everything people have been saying about afk cloaking. Whilst the streamer is cloaked, there is no danger of him killing anything. Haywoud Jablomi wrote: How he plays shows several of the issue people have with AFK cloaking. Although the most frequent issue by a very large margin is not being able to rat safely. Hence how afk cloaking is primarily a PvE issue. The ability to gather intel whilst cloaked is much less often mentioned, and rarely focused upon until the last few pages... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2355	Posted - 2015.03.21 22:26:18 - [59] - Quote Just an FYI, i assume the suggested anti-cloak structure will be entirely defensive (if they even go through with the feature). that is to say, it will help evict an afk cloaker from your system so you can rat. But does nothing to address the 100% safety of cloaks beyond that. I anticipate cloaking in high/low/WH's and in null systems you dont own will remain untouchable. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2356	Posted - 2015.03.21 23:40:18 - [60] - Quote Marranar Amatin wrote: I really doubt that the removal of cloaky camper will do more then a slight increase in isk overall, probably it wont even be noticeable. Even though the vast VAST majority of isk comes from null bounties and afk cloakers allegedly 'shut down systems for weeks'? Either the amount of isk goes up by a massive amount with its removal, or the people whining about afk cloaking have massively exaggerated its effects. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2356	Posted - 2015.03.21 23:59:35 - [61] - Quote so what you're saying is that hardly any systems are camped and the only people significantly affected by campers are the ones incapable or unwilling to move... Thus the effects have been massively exaggerated. (like saying entire constellations are shutdown. pfft) EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2356	Posted - 2015.03.22 00:12:57 - [62] - Quote The easy solution is most definitely to move. You dont have to own any space. Even if next door is under someone elses control, theres nothing stopping you taking that gate jump and ratting in their sov. But instead, ratting systems are typically waaaaaay back behind the safety of numerous systems and intel channels. There is plenty of room to move around and the vast majority of null is empty. Dont get me wrong, Cloaking should change. But if AFK cloaking has half the effect most people try to describe then you should expect hyperinflation after its removal. Remember, null bounties are very very sensitive. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2356	Posted - 2015.03.22 00:54:11 - [63] - Quote Marranar Amatin wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: The easy solution is most definitely to move. You dont have to own any space. Even if next door is under someone elses control, theres nothing stopping you taking that gate jump and ratting in their sov. But instead, ratting systems are typically waaaaaay back behind the safety of numerous systems and intel channels. There is plenty of room to move around and the vast majority of null is empty. I am assuming you are trolling here. You cant be serious that if you system is camped it is a viable alternative to rat in a system thats not your sov and where you dont have pos. Hey, if the system is quiet enough theres no reason you couldnt rat in it. You cant be serious that you MUST rat in a system where you have a POS. Is that why you think you have to own loads of space and cant easily move? Luckily most ratters can rat in systems without friendly POS's, and even enjoy the free intel of local to tell them to GTFO, cloak up, or log off. This may be why afk cloakers dont bother most ratters. As a comparison WH dwellers can only survive by ratting in hostile systems and they dont even get local or risk free-zero volume bounties. They have to haul their earnings back home... Marranar Amatin wrote: No. You still make the same mistake of applying averages where you cant. If 1 % of the players cant go ratting because of campers, then campers have an extreme impact for them. That would be a few thousand players. But still, even assuming all ISK in the game come from nullsec anos, the total income would only change by 1%. You could easily counter that by decreasing bounties by 1%. So those who arent bothered by afk cloakers have their earnings nerfed to accommodate for the dumb, lazy, risk averse loners who are? And you may not be able to just leave it as is because... Just tell me which is true... A) The reason people cant easily move is because there are few desirable ratting systems/constellations. These few will obviously be the systems/constellations ratters focus into and as such are frequently camped. The removal of such camping will free up massive amounts of isk making ratters. B) The reason the removal of camping will hardly affect the isk sink is because there are loads of ratters and loads of ratting systems/constellations, and really it is easy to move about and people are just being terrible at eve. C) You dont really appreciate the 'insane' amount of isk that comes from nullsec bounties, nor how afk cloaking is 'one of the most effective ways of disrupting peoples money making in null sec.' EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2365	Posted - 2015.03.22 19:35:41 - [64] - Quote GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote: As for the Observatories and Gate Structure roles and associated mechanics CCP are proposing, it is entirely underwhelming. much of that devblog have great improvements and much needed changes but this part of the devblog seems ill thought out and rushed in order to round out a structure orientated devblog. and i have to say, doing a half-job to round out a feature-set is extremely bad practise in eve and has never achieved good results. bear in mind all that stuff is just on the drawing board atm. Saying they've done half a job is meaningless when they themselves are saying they are far from finished. They will come out with their threads long before they put them in the game and we get to scrutinies every feature to be added or removed. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2366	Posted - 2015.03.23 15:37:49 - [65] - Quote Perkin Warbeck wrote: Why is it lazy? It seems pretty reasonable unless people also want to rat and mine afk (but you can't have your cake and eat it) If the mere fact that im logged in in local tells the residents that ive touched my keyboard in the last hour or so, then they know my presence is likely. That is too much information. So long as local remains as it is, it is impossible for me to sneak up on anyone unless an active player is indistinguishable from an afk player. hell no to log offs, afk markers next to my name, or any other such short sighted dribble. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2373	Posted - 2015.03.26 17:29:32 - [66] - Quote Marranar Amatin wrote: A big problem I see with these cyno ganks is that there is absolutly nothing that can be done to counter them. They pick the fight, you can only react. If they dont want to engange then they are 100% invulnerable because everyone is either cloaked or in a npc station. Now you're talking like a frieghter pilot claiming nothing could be done to prevent them being bumped before a gank. Perhaps you should stop waiting until its too late and start doing something about it before it happens. - Ratting pre-aligned out to safes. - Cyno jammer (this is a big one). - Ratting in a gang. - Baiting a camper out with a counter hot-drop when one has been spotted. high-sec bears dont get much warning before an attack, can barely defend themselves in freighters or barges and cant proactively hunt their attackers because of stations and CONCORD, and they get told to HTFU and prepare for the worst. Mournful Conciousness wrote: The problem specifically was that I wanted to solo some sleeper relic and data sites in a marauder, and one scout (which I had seen enter) effectively shut down the entire system to me.I had no way of knowing whether he had previously scanned the system or not, and behind (or ahead of) him could easily be a fleet of combat recons which I would never see before they landed. It's frustrating when it happens, but at least us w-space folk can go off and do something else - it's a kind of 'world gives you lemons, so make lemonade' lifestyle. I would imagine for nullbears it's pretty disempowering. Whilst i admit that the nature of cyno's makes assessing the size of the aggressors very difficult, nullbears have become complacent in other areas like scouting + intel gathering and team work. They are also so used to local providing perfect information that they dont expect to risk their ships. Its just the nature of WH's that every time you step out your POS, you understand you may be coming back in your pod, or not at all until you get another entrance from k-space. Not even a covert cloak gives you the expectation that youre going to get around freely. Marranar Amatin wrote: The odds are a lot more favourable in w-space then in nullsec. He MIGHT have scanned in w-space. The cloaky in nullsc simply has to warp to the anos. He MIGHT have a fleet somewhere behind. The cloaky in nullsec is guaranteed to have a cyno and allies with a black ops within jumprange. The fleet MIGHT consist of combat recons that you cant see until its to late. The fleet in nullsec is guaranteed to land on grid where you cant react in time. In w-space you make enough isk to replace your ship quickly. In nullsec that takes a lot longer. Poppy-**** - We have anoms in WH-space and we run them like you. Why dont you drop a drag bubble and an MTU on the warp in of the anom then MOVE to a different part of the grid? in fact we dont just run them, we come back for the loot and salvage in a noctis, otherwise we dont get paid! - The afk cloaker does not have a fleet behind him 24/7. Like your defending hot-drop, they cant have people on standby 24/7. The camper may not even be active! - what? the fleet can land on grid in WH's. at least in null you dont have the WH affects that increase your align time by 100% In null you make enough isk to replace your ship quickly. Dont even try to pretend you dont. or if you are space poor, you can fly a cheaper ship and still make good money. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2376	Posted - 2015.03.27 03:45:26 - [67] - Quote Marranar Amatin wrote: There is a good reason hardly anyone really tries what you describe. In general its just a bad idea. And none of the things you describe actually threaten the attacker, which was the point. He threatens you, but you cant do anything besides react. no, the reason they dont do it is because they can defend themselves perfectly well and effortlessly through the 100% safety of local. He threatens you, you cant threaten back? you can always PREPARE and DEFEND yourself though. Marranar Amatin wrote: -our anoms are too small to make it worthwhile to drop a dragbubble -a dragbubble does not help since the bomber arrives invisible and the rest via cyno -I never said he has a fleet behind him 24/7, but they are alway only one log in away -No you dont. Dont even try to pretend that the income of nullsec is close to w-space. w-space is A LOT more. You can have good income in null, but the fact remains: if your ship explodes on a regular basis, you wont be having any income. Or maybe a horrible and crappy income if you use t1 cruiser. But then you could as well go mission running in the perfect safety of high sec. I dont actually see a point in argueing this. Why do you think no one rats in null with cloakies active? Because everyone is stupid? The reason is it simply is not worth the risk. You loose more then you make. - no they arent - MTU's gather a nice spread of wrecks. its not perfect, but this happens and sometimes works in WH's. Drag bubbles and containers are used to catch cloaky scouts. - so why did you point that out as if it was an extraordinary threat as oppose to WH space, or any space for that matter where any unkown you havent run a locate on or is in a WH can log in and shoot you? - who said anything about null space rewards being close to WH space rewards? im saying you can quickly afford to replace ships with null ratting, which is completely true when you make between 100-200mil in a few hours sesh. No you dont lose more than you make, Ive never read such bull-** on these threads. You can easy make 100-200mil in a couple hours anom ratting. You can buy a T2 fit battleship twice a freaking day if you have a good session and no one, and i mean no one, has lost over 700 battleships in a year, no one has even lost 100 (fleet fights and SRP's aside). People use AFK ishtars and carriers FFS because the isk rolls in so much faster than you can be killed. You clearly havent even tried ratting with hostiles in local, or you're trying it with a stupidly bling ship. If you read the thread (and the killboards), people clearly are ratting with hostiles in local. Jennaside even gave you a 'how to' on ratting with no f*s given to local. I myself have done a 6month carebearing stint in null sec and rat with cloakies in local for possibly a third of that. With all the hours spent with reds in local, i was attacked three times. Once i lost a noctis and the others i bailed out of easy. Not once was cyno used in any of these attacks. So clearly not every cloaker ever has a cyno or a gang ready to drop and these AFK cloakers are not so active such that you cannot get a good few hours ratting in through the week, pay for your ship, bills+tax, any extras and still make a profit. You blow up the 'problem' into something its really not. You are just too used to the comforts provided by local. Now CCP are 'shaking up'nullsec and perhaps its not for you and those like you anymore. But dont worry, if you leave, there are now plenty of underdogs eager to take your place. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2378	Posted - 2015.03.27 17:03:31 - [68] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Do you think it's right that someone who's not even in the same building as their PC should be completely safe indefinitely and able to have that effect with no ability for others to hunt them down? No i dont. ive said this a hundred times by now. the argument im making is that an AFK cloaker does not cripple a players ability to play. All he does is add uncertainty to the mix. and this is uncertainty that the rest of the game deals with already without it somehow 'breaking' the game. Maranor quite clearly states that ratting whilst afk cloakers about is certain death, and so much certain death that you would lose more than you make. This is obviously a lie when people have been doing it for years and under current meta, even doing it AFK in carriers and ishtars. what you all should have been doing in the first place is just going out and ratting anyways, with precautions in place to mitigate the threat of an afk cloaker. Sometiems you'll be attacked, sometimes that will involve a cyno. Sometimes you'll escape, sometimes you'll die, sometimes you'll crush the invading force. This is part-and-parcel of the game. Raphael Celestine wrote: The problem with that is that if you can both A) infallibly detect when a hostile cloaky is present and B) infallibly determine whether said cloaky is active or AFK, you make it impossible for a cloaky to ever surprise an alert player. ^^^ gets it. Lucas Kell wrote: The point is that a weapon you don't know is unloaded gets treated as a threat. You wearing a bullet proof outfit is you responding to that threat, so I guess thanks for proving my point. No, its preparing for a potential threat. something you can do before an afk cloaker is in local. something you can do if cloakers dont ever show up in local. What ive been telling people through out this thread. If you only respond once a cloaker reveals himself, its already too late and youve missed your chance to do anything about it. Just like a freighter thats been bumped. There is plenty you can do leading up to these points however. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2378	Posted - 2015.03.27 17:18:34 - [69] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: So simply put, why should a player be able to be in space and project risk while being 100% safe even while inactive? The risk is inferred, not projected. Especially whilst inactive. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2381	Posted - 2015.03.27 17:38:04 - [70] - Quote Quote: So then lets add the ability to hunt them down and make that easy to counter if the cloaker is active. WIP Quote: Crippling or not it's irrelevant. A player who chooses to be inactive in space and still projects threat onto other players should be at risk of responsive action. If he's not there to counter himself then he should find himself podded. It's pretty simple. Over reacting on the forums is a problem. and i intend to fight it. If he intends to go afk, it should be possible for him to log off or find somewhere quiet to dock or to just sit in space for a few seconds for a bio break. Quote: Some players do, some choose to evade, once again it's irrelevant how the player reacts to the threat, the threat should not be occurring from a player who's not even playing the game. Im fine with evading. Im not fine with there being no way to covertly hunt. im not fine with forum whining. Quote: But then you still agree that a cloaker, active or inactive projects a level of threat, which was exactly my point. The existence of the cloaker is threat, him being in system is more threat and him being on grid is even more threat. What I'm saying is that if he chooses to go to bed or go to work he should become a threat that is easy to counter. I honestly can't believe that you people are arguing to keep in the ability to maintain 100% safety while AFK in space. What are you, carebears? no. This is where the difference of project and infer is important. The pressence of a cloaker (or anyone for that matter) is a possible threat. and by all means act accordingly. However, it may just be a passer by, it may just be someone whos afk. Neither of which are an actual threat. Its just the fact the defender does not know which for sure. You dont wear the vest because you think you're going to be shot. You wear the vest because your going into dangerous territory and its possible to be shot at anytime. Null is definitely dangerous territory. Where the vest at all times. Be alert at all times, not just when a cloaker appears. or run away at all times, never go into null. just dont whine of the forums. dont say that the cloaker forces you to do anything. dont think you are entitled to ratting because you pay a sub. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2381	Posted - 2015.03.28 01:44:49 - [71] - Quote lel. im agreeing with half of your points and you're getting tetchy because you think im insulting you. you're a freaking genius. Lucas Kell wrote: And while he's on that bio break if he chose to sit in space he should be every much at risk as any other player who chooses to do the same. yeah. that's what im saying. Quote: But there are ways to covertly hunt, go look at the killboards. As for forum whining, if you against it then why are you here whining? show me a killmail from null and ill show you players that were fully visible in local. Covert hunt it wont be. () Quote: Underline the key point. People do act accordingly. AFK cloaker know this, thus they maintain 100% safety while their character is present while they are AFK knowing full well that players have to act accordingly. This is what I have an issue with. If you want people to react to your presence, you should have to be present. If you ** off to bed you should expect a swift thrashing. It's really really simple. yeah...remove local and cloakers will be exerting themselves and encouraging ppl to react to their presence whilst very much active. and they will be completely unable to project anything whilst afk. even simpler than you thought huh?... gg Quote: I've not claimed to be entitled to anything. who the hell is talking about you? you jumped in on my reply to someone else! Quote:** But if someone thinks they should maintain 100% safety while doing it without even having to be at their computer, then there's a problem, and CCP seem to be addressing that. Don't think you are entitled to 100% safe cloaking mechanics while you sleep because you pay a sub. I know. Again, you're getting all wishy washy at the wrong guy... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2382	Posted - 2015.03.28 22:20:52 - [72] - Quote Madd Adda wrote: Not sure if this as been suggested, but I have an idea on how cloak can be changed without significantly doing anything to cloak/local. Why not have the thud sound indicating someone warped in/out play even while cloaked? the trail effects and exact location would be still masked, but the sound of someone warping in could be something that could help. I realize that this doesn't affect the AFK part and if someone is camping an area you still wouldn't know, but this could be of use to see if someone is scouting the area in a cloaky. vast majority of players play with no sound. also, multi-boxing. Other than those two points it wouldnt be a bad idea. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2384	Posted - 2015.03.29 05:47:18 - [73] - Quote Keeps comms clear. If you are multiboxing, how do you know which client the cloaky warped in on? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2387	Posted - 2015.03.29 15:54:22 - [74] - Quote Madd Adda wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Keeps comms clear. If you are multiboxing, how do you know which client the cloaky warped in on? i think you misunderstand something. When you warp in and that sound plays, it doesn't tell other players who the pilot is warping in on, just that they are on grid. Sure you can approximate where they are, especially if they are close, but nothing warping in at a distance wouldn't fix. The argument against this concerning multiboxers seems rather hollow considering they would just have to adapt, or they don't get the intel of a cloaky coming on grid. It's like someone not dscanning and getting blown up by a random ganker. The intel is there, just have to work it into your system. no. i think you are misunderstanding. if i have three clients open, and i hear that sound, there is nothing to tell me which client is making the sound. D-scan and your idea are apples and oranges. when i want to d-scan, i choose which client to do it on and i choose when to d-scan to learn whats around that char. Nothing liek this happens with your idea. im not actively listening, and im not choosing which client is listening at what point. When i hear the sound, there is nothing that tells me which client it came from and could have come from one of three different grids. Why make an intel point around part of the game that is little used and is less than useful to a major part of the player base (players with sound turned off and multiboxing). Lucas Kell wrote: Lol? AFK cloakign isn;t a counter to anything. And local intel is not OP. Stop throwing around horseshit hoping it sticks. Basically you don't like local, so you'll say "Oh, this think we do which is dumb and broken is a counter for that other mechanic I don't like". In reality AFK cloaking has nothing to do with countering local, it's just a way for you risk averse PvPers to maintain 100% safety while affecting a system while you sleep. No, afk cloaking was started to counter local. When null bears started running away the second a neutral entered system, players started sitting in local 24/7 so that defenders couldnt be sure whether the neutral was active or not. we dont log in and sit in systems because we fancied staying online whilst we went to work. We did it to make nullbears think it was unsafe when it was actually safe, and then safe when it was actually unsafe. Lucas Kell wrote: Funny thing is you think you want local removed. If that happened you'd have noone to hunt and you'd be back here crying about how empty null is. There's already a place to go with no local, yet most of you people won;t go there most of the time cos it's empty. lol no i wouldnt be crying. id be setting up shop again. As would others. The only ones who would be leave would be the ones who are looking for safe gameplay. Theres already a place with no afk cloakers, most of you people wont go there most of the time cos you cant make as much isk with as little risk. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2394	Posted - 2015.03.29 21:00:16 - [75] - Quote Madd Adda wrote: " there is nothing to tell me which client is making the sound." hence why having one client with sound would be preferred. Or why having something entirely different that was not dependent on sound would be preferred. Madd Adda wrote: i will concede the dscan point but, if your clients are all on the same grid, it wouldn't matter which client was with sound on. Grant it you might not have all clients on the same grid but why should that make my idea bad? because i often have clients on separate grids/systems/WH's. As do many other players. Madd Adda wrote: You're trying to discredit it because you would either have to be active just to hear it (with sound on naturally)or have your clients all on the same grid (both of which are good practices imo). What your failing to do is to look at the scope of the idea from anyones perspective but your own. Few people have all of their clients on the same grid all the time. Very few. Madd Adda wrote: You'd prefer like is now, someone warps in cloaked and attacks an alt, of which you have no sound on . How do you know you're being attacked? Wouldn't it be better to at least have it in the off chance you to hear it and you warp off? id prefer to have an active way to look for cloaks. Not a passive menu option with a random chance of choosing the correct grid. Madd Adda wrote: Anyway, if you don't know which client the sound came then you do the sensible thing and warp all clients to safety. If you don't agree with that then you deserve to be ganked. And if i need to defend whats on grid with me, how do i know which grid i need to get my buddies to? or im hunting the cloaker? its not about running away all the time. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2394	Posted - 2015.03.29 21:27:17 - [76] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: You're honestly insane if you believe that to be the actual truth. says the null bear. Not the afk cloaker. It was directly a response to null bears docking up, then undocking after we left. The information for which was provided to them by local. So instead we sat in system and went onto other things, making them think they were in danger when we were no where near our KB. Then they eventually started undocking and trying to rat with hostiles in system. The cat and mouse game begins. Lucas Kell wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: When null bears started running away the second a neutral entered system, players started sitting in local 24/7 so that defenders couldnt be sure whether the neutral was active or not. Which makes no sense, since according to all the crying cloakers in here they still do run away from every neut. facepalm read thread from beginning. obviously not every bear runs from neuts. Its maranor, or whatever, that was saying its stupid and unprofitable to rat with neuts in local, but he hasnt a freaking clue either. People do in fact chance ratting with neuts in local. Thats why there are kills to show such. What this discussion is about is: *Cloak is the counter to local. Local is the counter to cloaking.* They both create a crappy stalemate atm, but if one is to change (which null bears have been pressuring for forever), then the other should change (which is the counter pressure from people like me). Or keep them both as they are now. Quote: Exactly, you do it to counter PvE players with a stake in null, not to counter the fact that they can tell when local has a +1. nope. We counter PvE players with a stake in null by attacking them. They counter us by knowing the exact point we enter and leave system and knowing when its safe. We counter by sitting in local 24/7 to take away that certainty of our presence provided by local. Quote: Setting up shop doing what? There would be noone to shoot, and setting up PvE would be literally the dumbest idea possible, since you would be able to get more reward with less risk elsewhere. It's got nothing to do with wanting safe gameplay, it's simple logic. Why would someone opt to be paid less for being at more risk? If theres no one there i can PvE with little risk...If there are people there who can attack me, i get to PvP. How can you not get that? edit- unless you think i cant PvP whilst PvE'ing. In which case, thats your problem right there. How is removing local lowering the rewards below hi sec? all it does is add risk. I can still choose hi-reward hi-risk null without local, or low-reward low-risk hi-sec. which is a thousand times better than hi-reward low-risk null we have now. And null bears have even been pushing for lowering the risk even further! EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2397	Posted - 2015.03.30 16:46:09 - [77] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Lol, bullshit. It was a counter to sov being held by groups who couldn't be fought by the smaller ones. It was designed as a way to reduce ratting to cripple groups that relied on it for income. Yes...and when they saw us enter local every time they disappeared. so we started hanging around. how cant you get past the first step? Quote: There are kills primarily from people who aren't AFK cloakers, because they actually have the skills to hunt down players. It's only terrible people who are unable to score kills who choose instead to AFK cloak. Wrong. Cloak is not there to counter local, and local is not there to counter cloak. They are two separate mechanics. The fact that local is used to show your presence in AFK cloaking is the only link between the two. Your drawing line to link two mechanics where there are none in an effort to push the idea that both mechanics have to change together. They don't. what youve done here is both concede afk cloakers get kills and then whine about the irrelevant lack of skill in afk cloaking. Its the most effective way of hurting null bear income, and even you know that. Should we change this dynamic? yes i think so. But by changing both cloaks and local at the same time. That way we get a more interesting covert play with good risk/reward. I have not said they have to change together. Ive said they should change together. The reason being that they are both equally infallible and opposing forces in afk cloaking. Your own admission that the two are linked by afk cloaking furthers my point. Lucas Kell wrote: And like I said before, you want them to change cos you think it would make you able to score more kills if there were no local. It wouldn't, you'd be flying around empty space bawling your eyes out about how there's no targets. still not getting it. If there are no targets i can rat with other players like me in small gangs (and nikk will be mining somewhere i assume) and get space rich, and if there are i can PvP. Does it boggle your mind that people manage to rat without the safety of local? Lucas Kell wrote: LOL, no, that's really not the case. Honestly mate I'm not going to argue this to death since it's cleak you've been sucking down the koolaid for a bit too long. You want to carebear around with your 100% safety while AFK mechanic. That's a crappy mechanic and should and hopefully will go. then you'll have to put in some goddamn effort rather than sleeping and making use of cloak mechanics which have needed a rebalance for a long time. Im fine with cloaks losing their 100% safety. Its just you thats crying about how local should go with it. Locals a crappy mechanic that provides safety that should and is rumored to go. Then you'll have to put some goddamn effort into ratting rather than merely glancing at a chat channel that needed a rebalance a long time ago. Lucas Kell wrote: I think you miss the point. Removal of local would increase risk in null. Whether you mitigate that is irrelevant. If the risk is too high, you'd move to highsec, for a small reduction in reward but an increase in safety. If the risk was fine, you'd move to wormhole space where you can make more. Staying in null, you'd be opting to have more risk than wormhole space with less reward than wormhole space. It's really quite simple. Only very "special" players would choose to do that. Do you think we get bounties or something in WH's? Do you think WH = null without local? If everyone entered WH's tomorrow the value of WH goods would plummet as supply increases. If everyone went to hi-sec tomorrow the value of LP would plummet. If everyone left null tomorrow, we'd get deflation and the value of raw isk would increase. With that, the value of null anoms increase. Level 4's would not replace null anoms for isk generation and there arent enough hi-sec incursions to support the entire null sec playerbase. That makes null anoms very valuable if people leave null, much more valuable than WH's. If you dont believe me, you either dont know economics, or you vastly under estimate the amount of raw isk that comes from null. Just so you know, its 'insane'. its really quite simple. GG. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2403	Posted - 2015.03.31 16:39:45 - [78] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: I didn't concede that lol, read it again. It quite clearly states that the majority of kills have nothing to do with AFK cloakers, they are from skilled PvPer. go ahead and chck the killboard stats. and youve just conceded again that afk cloakers get kills. So what if i just want more kills. Thats what this games about and you just want to rat with less risk. Lucas Kell wrote: The fact that local is used to show your presence in AFK cloaking is the only link between the two. Lucas Kell wrote: They shouldn't change together because they aren't related. Says there is a link, then says they arent related.... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2403	Posted - 2015.03.31 16:40:38 - [79] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Lol? I'm saying you should lose your 100% AFK safety, and you're the one leaping in screaming "FINE! BUT NULL PVE SHOULD BE RUINED AS WELL!", as if removal of local and removal of ability to sleep while safely undocked are even remotely comparable in terms of severity. leaping? screaming? caps? This, added to the fact that its taken you this long to realise what my position is, just tells me you havent even been reading my replies before putting in these over-emotional knee jerk responses and hyperbole. You havent read the thread, cant make a consistent argument and argue like a child. Quote: I happen to like the fact that people live in null though and it certainly will be a shame if they remove local and it empties out. But you said it wouldnt empty out. Lucas Kell wrote: Between the people moving to each different area of space and the few that remain behind it would still balance in favour of elsewhere, and should the balance of faucets fall too far away from the sinks, CCP would intervene by introducing changes. You're also forgetting that mining exists and is a large part of PvE too. The simple fact that finding a null PvE player is easy even without local would make it counter-productive to rat there. Not to mention that your entire premise there is based on the idea that null would empty out - so basically you agree with me. You should know that a premise does not in fact mean i agree with your hypothesis...its a premise (note the word 'IF' at the beginning). I put the emptying of null as my premise to humor your doom and gloomery and then use simple supply and demand to show how flawed your hypothesis was. The only thing we agree on is that supply and demand is a thing. Then you just conceded that some people would stay in null. So without local i can PvE for fat isks and PvP. And then you say that CCP would intervene if things swing one way. And whos to say CCP dont already have plans for the reward systems of null. They are already talking about a complete overhaul of ore. TL:DR Null is changing, hopefully its losing local, null bears will cry and go else where. This isnt a bad thing. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2403	Posted - 2015.03.31 17:02:38 - [80] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: I really do love this idea that you guys put forward that if AFK cloaking didn't exist, all PvP activity would just cease in nullsec. It's absolute horseshit and you know it. That would be because no one has said that Lucas Kell wrote: Any method which removes the ability to see people as soon as they arrive would pretty much wreck null, therefore if they replaced it it would have to be with a module or skill that did pretty much what local does now, making it a completely pointless change. How would it wreck null when WH space and hi-sec do just fine without it? If your only argument is that you can make more money else where for less risk. you are forgetting about supply and demand and/or admitting people would stay in null as well as ignoring the fact that null rewards could be changed as well. Would you tell us that if the rewards were changed you wouldnt mind the removal of local? Bogdo Lama wrote: stuffs If you think cyno's make null sec much worse for ratting than WH space, then surely the problem is at least partly to do with cynos, which can be rebalanced now that caps can use gates and local is going. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2410	Posted - 2015.03.31 21:33:56 - [81] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: The killboards suggest it's pretty balanced. And thats why we are trying to keep it balanced. you're the one asking for changes in only one direction and trying to upset balance. Lucas Kell wrote: It's you wanting people to be punished because you feel you're going to lose out. I'm not going to quote you in detail and respond to each point because quite honesty you are just insulting me and trolling at this point and I refuse to enter into a discussion with someone like that. Look at your own posts. You fling more ** than anyone else here. If you want to return discussion to what it was like before you got here, im all for that. Lucas Kell wrote:** No, I'm saying that wormhole space has a tiny fraction of the population of null, so suggesting wormhole space as proof that space without local retains a significant portion of null population doesn't really work. I thought if local was removed everyone would leave null and its population would be very small. So are you now saying that PvE and PvP would be just as healthy in null as WH's (which is to say very) if local was changed because the no local dynamic works with low populations? if not, why not? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2413	Posted - 2015.04.01 17:54:30 - [82] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: No, I'm saying that WH space is pretty empty which indicates that even if null were like WHs, they would lose most of their population, not to mention that null also has static navigation, no ship restrictions and force projection, things that all contribute to making WH space far more suitable for the lack of local. I'm pretty sure CCPs goal is not "remove most of the nullsec population". So your problem is cyno's? which, with many other things, are up in the air for discussion as part of the null changes. You never answered me when i asked if null rewards are buffed, would that make removing local good. CCP's goal was to fix a boring and stagnant system and enable small gangs to be a credible threat to coalitions that lazily defended their stuff. Changing cloaks, changing sov warfare, changing local and the jump nerfs will make it harder for large groups to hold vast areas of space. It has more people talking about getting a piece of null than before, and will bring more interesting gameplay like small gang roaming. The kinds of players most likely to leave are null bears and cap blobbers. I dont see that as a problem, i infact see that as a good thing. Teckos Pech wrote: [1]Daichi has linked a thread showing this is really not the case that even a small change in the rate of ISK flowing into the EVE economy is of intense interest to CCP. Daichi if you could link that thread again I'd be grateful. Link With what soni-clover suggests it would be prudent to believe that we'd get inflation if cloaks were changed alone. And likewise prudent to believe we'd get deflation if things were made too risky. Null rewards are getting looked at. Ore is getting an over haul and CCP often boast about their new rat-making software. I dont think it so unlikely that they wont touch null rewards. Lucas Kell wrote: Wrong. Any change that will be significant enough to be worthwhile (ie, not replacing it with an identical but module based system) will destroy null, and AFK cloaking being removed wouldn;t create an imbalance, it would be the removal of a redundant feature no longer required with the sov rebalance. 'Null as we know it...' But thats kinda the point. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2417	Posted - 2015.04.02 17:32:06 - [83] - Quote How does the fact that is a portion of the UI mean it doesnt suck? Considering how much players have said other parts of the UI suck, im curious how your argument works? If i could right click and warp to anyone in local, it would still be just a piece of UI like the market window, and youd defend it as such? lol EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2419	Posted - 2015.04.03 16:29:59 - [84] - Quote Marranar Amatin wrote: Just because you keep repeating it, does not make it come true. Local is NOT a counter to cloakies, there simply is no counter to cloakies right now. They are completly invulnerable for as long as they wish, and there is absolutly nothing that can be done to make them go away or loose something if they dont wanto to. Local is the counter to any ambush, cloaky or otherwise. Likewise local allows players to never lose anything by merely keeping an eye on a chat channel. The only thing that can be done to counter local is to appear afk and dull everyone to your presence, which is only practical to do in a cloak. If you change cloaks and nothing else, you remove the only counter to local. Something that should never happen considering how stupidly safe ratting already is. Change one, change the other. Marranar Amatin wrote: Except for cloakies you mean. They should be completly invulnerable, even when being afk right? They should not have the risk of loosing anything after undocking, even when afk. Is that your opinion? If you dont let them appear to be AFK, then you cannot counter local. local has to go with 100% safety of cloaks. Marranar Amatin wrote: And since w-space would then still be safer, since you have to scan the sites and so you get a warning in form of scanner probes on local, which is not the case in k-space, obviously the rewards of k-space anomalies would have to be increased too. ABOVE w-space since there is more risk involved. We have anoms just like you, and not only that, but we have to loot them to get paid. We dont get to warp out and still get paid after running half the site because a gang turns up. We've been through this already Marranar Amatin wrote: I think that what you want is really really bad gamedesign. Why should one side have the advantage? Why should the attacker have zero risk and not the defender? Why not make pve ships invulnerable? The only good compromise can be a fair distribution of risk on the activities depending on what they achieve. You're the one asking for changes in only one direction that will massively favour the defender and allow him to evict the cloaker with minimal effort or risk. Everyone has been saying that the current system is balanced, albeit undesirable, and you're saying it needs to be heavily shifted to give the defender even more safety... We're asking for both to change so effort has to be expended by both sides. The only ones looking to create bad game design are the ones saying local is fine but cloaks are not. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2420	Posted - 2015.04.03 18:33:26 - [85] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: All stemming from one quick glance at local log. It is the single largest source of intel gathering in the game. Period...and it is entirely free to use. So? There's an enormous wealth of information available through the UI completely free to use, and yet local is the one that you guys whine about because that's the one that people use to evade. What you want is to remove people's ability to raid so you can get free kills. Who said local is the only one we want changed? What about free intel from maps, watchlists etc etc Most of us are happy to bundle: cloaks, local, watchlists, map intel, cyno's and all other intel and covert play mechanics into the same group for rebalancing. Its people like you that are whining about needing local so you can rat safely. What you want is to remove peoples ability to sneak up on you so you can rat safely. Marranar Amatin wrote: You are still missing the point. Nothing of what you wrote describes how you are supposed to counter the cloakies system disrupting power by using local. Specifically; - Local counters cloaks. - AFK cloaking counters local. - Calling the cloakers bluff, moving system or ratting in groups counters afk cloaking, but is a nice, healthy gamble thanks to Cyno's. - Cyno's are problematic. A cloaked ship is intended for covert play. It is a tool for (amongst other things) gaining the initiative or ambushing in an engagement. Local completely counters that and you cannot use a cloak to ambush anyone where there is local. Instead you are more likely to get the initiative or effectively ambush someone by doing a log off trap or going afk, or in other words not playing. Hence our problem. Its not good gameplay, and it is irrefutably caused by local. Thus local should be changed, especially if cloaks are changed. Marranar Amatin wrote: Then you can start a new discussion why local is a problem and what could be done to fix that. But there is no point in defending an obviously broken mechanic while ignoring all arguments and simply stating they counter another allegedly broken mechanic. Oh my god! Read the thread...You'd realise we do this several times during this thread (and hundreds of threads over the years) until someone like you or Kell come in and whine about losing local and we have to go over it all again... Marranar Amatin wrote: And I am still right. Your anoms give a lot more rewards, which is ok, because your risk is a lot higher. But if k-space risks raises even above w-space risk, then obviously k-space rewards must be raised too. WH rewards are high because T3's are in high demand and there are few people that are willing and capable to do what we do. Likewise Null rewards are less than WH's because anyone and their pet hamster can do what you do, and they can do it a lot. So much so that inflation was perceived to be problem in EVE for a good while, until isk sink after isk sink was introduced. Add some risk to null sec and that raw isk becomes more valuable than it has been in years. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2420	Posted - 2015.04.03 18:35:19 - [86] - Quote Marranar Amatin wrote: No I am not. If you would actually read what I write instead of jumping to conclusions you should now that. I am simply for changing a broken mechanic. If removing afk camping makes ISK generation in 0.0 too easy, something has to be done there to, I said that numerous times. On that point I am just stating the fact that simply removing local would be a HUGE nerf to 0.0 ISK generation which would put it far below the current status quo (which you claim to be balanced), so as an exchange there has to be a strong buff to income, or in security. You accuse me of jumping to conclusions? If you remember i agreed with you that afk cloaking should be remedied. And i even said at that point local should be changed with it. Ive also said in this thread that null rewards could be looked at, reminding everyone that null ores are getting an overhaul. Ive asked Kell who's issue is with low rewards vs hi-risk, what he would think of buffing null rewards with the removal of local, but he never replied. The only parts we disagree on is where the current status quo is balanced, that AFK cloaking does not make it impossible to rat profitably and that a lack of AFK cloaking would cause inflation. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2444	Posted - 2015.04.11 05:51:26 - [87] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mag's wrote: Insurance Agent wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: The point is to introduce increased uncertainty, every "solution" to AFK cloaking by the dedicated PvE pilots is to reduce uncertainty. That is, IMO, not balanced. Introduce uncertainty? It already exists. This thread is the product of this fact. Pro AFK cloak support is based on the logic that PVE is a risk free activity. Isn't it hypocritical to say that, when the AFK person is by definition not at the keyboard and has no risk what so ever to be in danger while he/she is earning a paycheck from 8 to 5 in a cubical? (I give the players the benefit of the doubt that they moved out of moms basement after a decade of EvE). Let me aks you and all Pro AFK cloakers this: What if the module Fozzie mentioned briefly becomes a reality. The mobile cyno bridge projector, where you select a system and say a little prayer that yoru fleet lands in the desired space. Imagine that alliances are a bit more concentrated, and generally heavy pve activity systems are known to the public. Now imagine a cov ops ship scouting the place out in the previous day, bookmarking towers, pos or whatever structures we will have and points of interest for inner system warp. Then a day later imagine a super awesome fleet of sabres, ceptors and various HAC's deploying the ninja summer salt cyno bridge projector to land in said system. Some ships will land a couple systems over or under, but 80% of the fleet lands at the sun. Bookmarks set for quick warps to points of interest, sabres bubble stuctures and gates, ceptors chack anoms. For the arguments sake lets say 3 people were ratting and 2 had a cloak the carrier used all high slots for max isk/h. One BS leaves anom before anyone can get there goes to safe and cloaks, other BS tries to warp to pos, ups ther is a bubble. Carrier is too slow to align before a sabre lands on grid. Would this scenario be a good replacement for the current status quo? The uncertainty is still there, and even better since both parties have some by the nature of the random jump. If the fleet is made up of 5 people and only 2 land in the desired system, it might not work out for the aggressor as well. He is saying there is uncertainty, but what he is also saying is that all the changes requested reduce it. Yes there is risk with PvE in null atm, but the risk is very low. Ask yourself this. If you are playing with friends in a fleet in null, with intel channels as well as local, just how likely is someone entering local going to have of catching you? This is the point we are making. It's not about being pro AFKing, it's about balance. We have said all along that you cannot nerf cloaks, without also looking at local. Now I personally like the status quo, but I am not pro AFK. What I am is pro sandbox, pro thinking outside that box. Pro psychological warfare. It's not the AFKing per se that I like, it's the effect produced and the ways people combat it. But let's face it all this chat is academic, as there are big changes coming. As yet the clarity of those changes is not yet in focus. Pretty much this. AFK cloaking introduces uncertainty. Removing AFK cloaking will reduce uncertainty from the status quo. Neither am I pro AFK...especially pro AFK cloaking, but game balance should be preserved. And pretty much this. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2450	Posted - 2015.04.26 18:43:53 - [88] - Quote Bogdo Lama wrote: Bogdo Lama wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Bogdo Lama wrote: edited by Daichi Yamato stuffs [quote=Daichi Yamato] Some tarded trolling about cynos If you dont know how cynos work in wh's maybe you should go try light one yourself. Nice trolling attempt anyways to pick one word from my post that had also many other complicant words innit. But i guess multiple words might be too tough nut for your IQ to handle... This might take the biscuit for cheap, non-constructive and all round lame-arse posts. I havent even posted in this thread for like a week and you've taken out any chance of discussion by making sure that the actual points we were arguing over (if we were arguing, we could have been singing to each other about cyno's and WH's for all your quoting shows but, im assuming from the butt hurt in this post we were arguing) are deleted and then mouth-fart pure hatred and attacks. How am i even supposed to know what you're talking about let alone defend my argument? Help a bro out. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2461	Posted - 2015.05.02 17:20:57 - [89] - Quote Bogdo Lama wrote: So you blaming me about what you did yourself? You quoted the post and edited my text so i couldnt see what i had posted so i had to actually find the original post you had quoted. And yea i havent actually deleted anything. But yea sure you did some trolling about cynos when it wasnt even the point of my post. And i gave you some constructive critisism. No idea why your so butthurt about it tho. Anyway is 2 number of your forum alts because all your posts seem to have 2 upvotes? Whatever no reason to continue this discussion. Unless you want to? I replied to your post within a matter of hours, and about 4 posts below your own. Forgive me if it was unreasonable to expect you'd actually know what i was replying to. Your reply was almost a month after that. And check this for constructive criticism... Quote: If you dont know how cynos work in wh's maybe you should go try light one yourself. Nice trolling attempt anyways to pick one word from my post that had also many other complicant words innit. But i guess multiple words might be too tough nut for your IQ to handle... Insult my IQ whilst misspelling 'complicated' and using terms like 'innit'. Nice. Cynos are one of the fundamental differences between WH's and Nullsec and by far the most common reason why the idea of no local in Null sec is unpopular. So shoot me focussing on that one. Some of the other differences, like map info, can also be looked at. The other differences aren't so game changing that they need to be used as a smoke screen for changing a frankly broken part of the game. Bogdo Lama wrote: Also while you nicely found and linked all those posts you still didnt bother to link the original post that was quoted which makes all this misleading. And you cared so much you linked it yourself. @pidgeon I could imagine a gate flash being visible system wide. Not sure what you have in mind for the others. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2466	Posted - 2015.05.05 14:54:00 - [90] - Quote Tian Toralen wrote: New idea: the module is a SOV or large POS module. It can only be used in null-sec and wormholes. The module is expensive, uses the strontium or some other material, has a delay of 15 minutes, and - *the most important thing - when activated it does a system wide announcement that it has been activated, then after 1-3 minutes all ships (enemy or not) in system are decloacked.* In this way, the campers, if they are not AFK, can simply re-activate their cloak. You can see this does not hurt the gameplay of covert ops ships or bombers in any way, because of the announcement, it only hurts AFK campers. If CCP is against doing any activity in EVE while AFK, then I think you can agree with this. Cloaked camping is an activity. The announcement before activation would mean that non-AFK campers or other covert ops ships (bombers) are not affected in any way. Also it would make owning sov, or a large tower a little more valuable, strategic importance, etc. (re-post, I opened a new thread, did not know about this one) Whilst you were directed here from your other thread, you could have read this thread a bit, and the links in the OP, and at least acknowledged the counter arguments to this exact idea. Tian Toralen wrote: I know it's not new. How is it "amazingly powerful"? You'd have your answer if you read the threads. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2467	Posted - 2015.05.06 15:38:20 - [91] - Quote Tian Toralen wrote: The guy cloaked on the station will have all the time to get safe, or recloak instantly, if he is not afk. Again, if you had read the threads you'd know this is overpowered. Tian Toralen wrote: i have nothing against cloaked campers, as long as they are not AFK And if you know hes not afk you dock up and are untouchable. if you can tell the difference between an afk cloaker and active one then its broken. If you can see that the cloaker has cloaked up again, you know he is active. This is still giving you perfect intel and is too powerful. If the cloaker appears in local, you must not be able to distinguish whether he is active or not. read the threads. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2470	Posted - 2015.05.06 23:24:33 - [92] - Quote Amstat wrote: A little Cloaking exemple and exploite!. http://i.imgur.com/qvGpbrs.jpg Sits with 14 blues in system, refuses to undock against one afk cloaker. go back to hi-sec, seriously. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2491	Posted - 2015.05.13 14:38:20 - [93] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Johny Tyler wrote: I think the blame on local as an intel tool is misplaced. For the love of.... How exactly do you know there is a guy cloaked in system with you? What tells you he is there? First and foremost, the ability to log in is what allows me to see a cloaker, so let's start by removing the ability to log in, and go from there. well except in hi-sec, low sec and WH's. why start with logging in when we can hit the nail right on the head with local? Johny Tyler wrote: Local is not the only tool for intel. In a decent WH corp you will have a fairly good idea who is in your space. ... Edit: To be clear I am all for removing local. I think it would be great. It just isn't the reason that afk cloaking needs a counter. Thats our point. we're not saying local is the reason afk needs a counter, we're saying AFK cloaking IS the counter to local. AFK cloaking needs a counter because its infallible, not fun, nor engaging. But without it, local is also infallible, omnipotent and provides too much easy safety for lazy players. Change one, change the other. And like you've just said, taking out local doesnt cripple a groups ability to gather intel and monitor their space. But it does mean it takes more effort and coordination than glancing at a chat channel. And thats for both attacker and defender. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3472	Posted - 2016.08.28 22:53:52 - [94] - Quote Kimberly Sun wrote: Seriously, this issue has existed for years. This thread is more than a year old and nothing has changed. If you read the OP, this thread was not meant to change anything. Kimberly Sun wrote: I log in to find the entire region being camped by a dude with 40+ alts cloaked. There are times when i just want to PVE, watch some spaceships blow up (NPCs) and enjoy the graphics. I want to play a game to have fun but I find it getting harder to enjoy this game anymore. I am getting tired of this game and i will soon leave if nothing is changing in the near future as i find myself logging off more to play others games when such things happen. Null sec is PvP centric area. EVE is a PvP centric game. You are never allowed to 'just PvE'. You should live in hi-sec, or just quit already. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3473	Posted - 2016.08.29 13:20:48 - [95] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: So when you just have low risk PvP players to shoot and find they are all cloaky camping each other while playing other games, you can enjoy you PvP centric game, or not as the case will be. Did your brain just fart? Do you need reminding how much stuff still happens in the game despite afk cloaky being a tactic for over a decade? The only thing afk cloaking stops is whinetards from accessing high level content in complete safety. Even then 'afktars' are a thing and some players just rat in gangs whilst waving mid digits to afk cloakers in local. Grow a backbone or go back to hi-sec where there are cushions for players who play alone and don't like pvp. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3474	Posted - 2016.08.29 21:30:54 - [96] - Quote Never done it. I just rat in null sometimes. But i can see the stupidity in posts from people who just want to be left alone in a pvp sandbox. And when you suggest that the only pvp in this game involves afk cloaking, its obvious to everyone you're talking out your arse. Just making such a farcical post begs belief. Thats why I'd hope you just brain farted that **** out. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3476	Posted - 2016.08.30 14:48:26 - [97] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: So you rat sometimes in 0.0 and don't live there and you call me stupid? Nothing to be with being left alone, my issue is solely with the AFK part, I like many others have no issue when they are ATK. No i actually do have a char living in null again. But its more for the PvP side of things. Even if i didn't have a char in null, how would that make me stupid exactly? You seem to have become confused. I was talking to someone else before you tried to say that if we dont remove afk cloaking, then the only PvP left in the game will be afk cloaking... Dracvlad wrote: Throwing one liner insults based around your feelings is just lame, the only one doing a brain fart is you, well add Teckos to that too. I didnt insult you, but the post you made and the one made by Kimberly Sun were stupid. We all should know this thread wasnt meant to indicate coming changes to the game. We all know we are not entitled to rat, especially in null, without the risk of bad guys coming a long, and we all know EVE's PvP in its entirety does not revolve around afk cloaking. As for throwing insults being 'lame'. Dracvlad wrote: Methinks you are another lazy AFK camper toe rag. come on.... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3479	Posted - 2016.08.30 23:56:19 - [98] - Quote Except people are still ratting even with afk cloakers in local and have been for years. When the population of eve was growing every year it obviously wasn't under threat from afk cloakers. What changed between then and now? Because it wasn't afk cloaking...if anything afk cloaking was nerfed with jump fatigue lol. The people that dont bother logging in because of afk cloakers would only log in if it was 100% guaranteed to be safe. Catering to these carebears will end up, and is, killing the game. Why can't these players, rather than making empty threats to quit, go back to hi-sec where they can make more isk than they would logged off or un-subbed? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3482	Posted - 2016.08.31 15:53:26 - [99] - Quote Yeah blops suffer from more jump fatigue than they did two years ago. You're trying to attribute the loss of subs to your pet peeve, despite subs falling long before the changes you suggest are the cause and the population of players exposed to afk cloaking being tiny. The players you and vipeer think are the reason for the loss of subs have always been quitting and they've been doing so long before subs were declining. They are the same as kimberly sun, they are renters that actually DON'T want to get into pvp. They just want to pve so they can 'level up their raven'. They could rat in groups to push up their ADM's but they don't want to. When you say they quit because hi-sec doesn't pay enough you're just showing how self entitled these people are. Eve is about risk vs reward but these players want the highest rewards without any risk. They will never stick with eve for its pvp sandbox and catering to them will kill this game even faster. The afk flag doesn't work because it still advertises to ratters when its completely safe to undock and the moment it is un-safe. Best thing to deal with the afk cloaky problem is to remove local. That way being afk cloaked does nothing and neither the ratters nor the campers get any certainty of safety. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3483	Posted - 2016.09.01 01:26:14 - [100] - Quote You don't even need to be pre aligned. Players appear in local before they load grid. They'd have to jump gate and know exactly where to warp to stand a chance of catching a battle ship. People caught in null are not paying attention or are jumped by a cloaker who's already been in the system a while. When it comes to playing together in null, things don't have to be perfect but the players who put in more effort and skill should survive more and those that play alone should die more. Nothing says you are entitled to survive in null when you play alone. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3485	Posted - 2016.09.01 10:00:16 - [101] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: You don't even need to be pre aligned. Players appear in local before they load grid. They'd have to jump gate and know exactly where to warp to stand a chance of catching a battle ship. People caught in null are not paying attention or are jumped by a cloaker who's already been in the system a while. When it comes to playing together in null, things don't have to be perfect but the players who put in more effort and skill should survive more and those that play alone should die more. Nothing says you are entitled to survive in null when you play alone. Then you are fail, because we caught people, just because you are lazy and lack knowledge and ability you want AFK cloaky camping to cover for your weakness. No i just told you i don't afk cloak. The people you caught are the ones that failed. They didn't pre-align, they didn't notice local, the didn't rat in a group, they didn't have allies nearby, they were close to the anom, they didn't mjd etc.. They failed on a lot of levels, because they have to to be caught. The exception being people who rat whilst an afk cloakers is in system, but these people tend to rat in something cheap and/or in groups. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3496	Posted - 2016.09.05 20:32:13 - [102] - Quote Its harder to kill someone in a station than it is to find someone cloaked. Call it imbalanced if you want, but without it you rat risk free and that's even worse than what we have now. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3498	Posted - 2016.09.05 21:12:15 - [103] - Quote You can attack a station but it does nothing to the player within. If you want the high rewards of null then yes you should put in the effort to work in groups or pay attention. Players that want to play half assed can live in hi sec and accept the reduced rewards. Thats risk/reward done right. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3501	Posted - 2016.09.06 15:30:03 - [104] - Quote No dracvlad, when the station is shot you dont do anything to the players within. If you want to argue that by working in groups you reduce their abilities then the exact same logic applies to afk cloaking. Ratting in groups reduces the effectiveness of an afk xloaker. @ vipeer, When your afk in a station i cant hunt you, so i cant play my game. 'go hunt somewhere else' Yeah, just like you can rat somewhere else if there is an afk cloaker in system. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3501	Posted - 2016.09.06 16:02:37 - [105] - Quote Likewise players are all docked as soon as you enter local. The cloaker doesn't stop you playing. Your risk aversion does. You could rat in groups or go back to hi-sec. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3574	Posted - 2016.10.30 21:15:12 - [106] - Quote Stalking players and scouting goes on for longer than you realise. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them are at their keyboard for the whole day waiting. By putting a limit on it, you hurt players at their keyboard as much as those away from it. Why put a limit on how long you can cloak when the players who are afraid of afk cloakers are just being melodramatic? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3576	Posted - 2016.10.31 01:52:58 - [107] - Quote loon Mabebu wrote: So you don't like the cycle timer on it then. Ok here is a different one that i can accept, Leave the timer and the charges out of it. How ever you can not light a cyno for a full 60 seconds after coming out of a cloak. That is right, you have to actually either have people already nearby in system to help you or you have to be able to tank in some way for 60 seconds before you can get reinforcements that the other person won't see coming. I personally would rather have the cycle timer. crap you could even through in a couple variation with this. No cycle time but you can't hot drop for 60 seconds, or cycle time but you can hot drop instantly. The more i think about this the more i like it. This again hurts a lot more than afk cloaking. Your insistance that various other playstyles need to change so that you don't have to speaks volumes. It'd be shocking if it wasn't already typical of null bears. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3643	Posted - 2016.12.19 17:35:50 - [108] - Quote Pfft The feeling that you're always being watched is the best part of wh space. Or the feeling that whilst you think you are preying on them, they could actually be preying on you. All this time you were complaining he could choose his engagements because of his cloak. Where were your cloakers? Why didn't you use the EXACT same tactic to make him doubt when its safe to ambush you or not? Every time he attacked he didn't know you didn't have a gang cloaked and watching over you. And you only have to kill him once and hes out of your hole, probably for good. Not buying your self-pitying. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.20 12:46:37 - [109] - Quote Jerghul wrote: Daichi Why is AFK anything still a thing? The only selfpity I see are from people afraid their afk cloaky camp buff is going away. Because local is still a thing. I don't afk cloak. Nor do i want afk cloaking to continue like it is. Pretty sure its been said hundreds of times by a lot of people. Both local AND cloaks need to change. The main reason this thread is so long is because null bears want it both ways and we're saying 'Nope. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.' @xcom. Log off traps were a away around watchlists as well. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.20 17:53:33 - [110] - Quote Jerghul wrote: Your issues with local was resolved with the introduction of wormhole space. Play there if you don't like local. Its a niche environment that most everyone hates (among the reasons for the hatred is due to lack of local), but you should occassionally be able to find someone there. Empire gates have Empire local. End of story Afkarebearing (killing things in absolute safety is the trademark of the true carebear) has to end as soon as possible. CCP is of course aware of this. No complaint from me. But it's no secret that local affords too much safety to nullbears and CCP are aware that afk cloaking is a non-issue in WH's. Hence fozzies comment in this thread. If local is removed from null (null is not empire) you can play in low or high if you are that attached to it and earn rewards more your level. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.21 02:21:04 - [111] - Quote On the contrary, wh space was a success beyond ccp expectations. They never intended people to live there, it was never meant to be highly populated. The very opposite in fact, its meant to be the great unknown. I mean christ, null is a failure as far as activity and killboards go. Its a dead zone compared to hi-sec. Your own measurement of 'success' basically says the entire game except hi-sec is a failure. And the reason people don't goto wh has more to do with unstable connections and the logistics nightmare than lack of local. Get a clue. If null ratting is dangerous then so is afk cloaking. Both sides take losses. Just another bear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.21 10:17:26 - [112] - Quote @Dracvlad, most of the people you know are quitting the game because of afk cloaking. Or thats what you say. But in your echo chamber of carebears that's what I'd expect you to hear. I also expect that the people leaving the wh are also bears, probably renting bears. So it's not that surprising they don't think its worth it the second the pve gets nerfed. As far as i can tell though, there is no mass exodus from wh's when it comes to the general population. Can you link me something reporting how everyone is leaving? Dracvlad wrote: WH players moaning about local in other game areas are some of the biggest jerks in the game period! And what about null players moaning about local in other areas? @Jerghul It was the logistical nightmare of living there that ccp thought meant people would only ever put up temporary bases. Not the lack of local. Alphas aren't going to any dangerous space much. Not just wh's and null. It's not the lack of local, its simply that you can be shot at that keeps the majority of players (not just alphas) firmly in hi-sec. And an alpha that can't cloak, or fly t2, is even further out of it's comfort in wh's. Mass restrictions go against the noob blob and cloaking is almost essential for diving into wh's. Do alphas have to go live in wh's? Not really. They can, and are, going to null though. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.21 12:17:35 - [113] - Quote So no link then? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.21 22:12:34 - [114] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: So no link then? So what am I supposed to link exactly, something on CREST perhaps? I had three different sets of mates all leave WH space due to the change to capital escalations, one of them had my help in moving out his dreads, the only people I know who are left in WH space is someone who does PI at this point which I find hilarious, just my circle of freinds by the way but highly amusing, take that as you will. Considering the posts on blogs and articles written when wh's were 'dying' in 2013 but weren't really, you'd think if wh were ACTUALLY dying then someone would post something other than 'my three (carebear) mates' lol. It's the same carebear group of friends who are qq'ing over afk cloaking. Speaking of which...weren't you quitting ten pages back? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.21 22:22:17 - [115] - Quote Jerghul wrote: Daichi 5% of the people involved in a null sec 0.5 trillion isk loss battle were alpha clones. Null-sec not yet accessible enough. Removing AFKarebearing (afk cloaky camping) will help fix that issue along with an enhanced local that gives individual players access to real time information in numerous systems (duplicating or improving on alliance intel information). Considering alpha clones are a completely new thing, 5% is not bad at all. Right now they only have 2mil sp. Their involvement has plenty of opportunity to grow. Just an fyi theres a guy on the comments section of the latest o7 show that refuses to come back to the game as long as null has local. That on its own isn't much to go by as an argument, but its still more than anything you and dracvlad have provided. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.22 00:46:41 - [116] - Quote Local has little to do with activity. Both hi-sec and null have the exact same local (if anything, local is even more effective as intel in null) yet null is barren in comparison. It also has little to do with why people find it difficult to live in WH's. You are either being ignorant, or a troll. Look up guides on living in WH space. They all say its difficult to live in a WH, but do they say its because of local? No. Every single one cites the shifting connections and the logistics as to why WH's are a hard place to live. You keep saying WH space is a failure, yet it is said by players to be 'perfect' and 'the least broken space in the game'. In fact, the last time i remember CCP talking about WH space they were saying it was TOO POPULATED and information and mapping was TOO EASY to get. Low activity =/= failure when low activity was the intention. And yes, 5% is good. In a fight involving THOUSANDS of players, we are talking about HUNDREDS of alpha's taking part in just one fight. This is when Alpha's have only been a thing for only a month. Removing local would improve small gang warfare and activity, small gangs are harder to find than big fleets without local and would be more effective. Its entirely in line with CCP's goals. There are literally people posting in public that they'd resub if there wasnt local in null. What have you guys got? An echo chamber of carebears pretending to quit but never actually doing it. When you and dracvlad actually quit the game because AFK cloaking is so unbearable i may reconsider (i may not). EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.22 14:10:36 - [117] - Quote Xcom wrote: Why are there so much local discussions in this thread? Evidence to the contrary cloaks wont suddenly stop working when local stops working. Local is an intel tool, its not the reason cloaks are imbalanced. AFK cloaking is just a wordplay on the nature of how safe cloaks are and nothing to do with local directly. Cloaking is the problem in a cloaking thread, everything else is of topic unless there is a direct link to cloaks. Local might be used to put fear into players in a system when camping with a cloak, but without local as in w-space we still have people sitting AFK cloaked, just not visible to any player. Local is not an intel tool. It was never intended to be used that way. Its a chat channel and through the years CCP have been looking for a way to return it to its real function and replace it with a real intel tool. Afk cloaking is a result of local. It's a complete non-issue in wh space. CCP Fozzie wrote: It's very important that it be possible to disrupt peoples' money-making in nullsec, and AFK cloaking is one of the most effective ways. We're not worried about cloaked ships being overpowered because cloaked ships do very little DPS. But we understand it has a pretty big psychological effect. We would like to make some changes...it may not be the changes people are expecting, though. For instance, I can tell you that AFK cloaking is not an issue in wormhole space and there are pretty good reasons for that. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.22 14:19:44 - [118] - Quote @Jerghul The entitlement is that you should have free intel. @dracvlad Lol killboard searching now. Awww. Luhya's mine yep. Flies logi in fw. But i doubt the sacrilege kill was with logi, check the fit and imagine near 7-800 dps cutting through its lowest resist. No time for logi. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3645	Posted - 2016.12.22 14:37:55 - [119] - Quote if youve checked my killboard, you'll have also seen daichi used to nullbear, WITH bad guys in local...just sayin EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3657	Posted - 2016.12.29 14:07:47 - [120] - Quote If that was the case dracvlad, afk cloaking wouldn't be the main way to catch ratters. People started afk cloaking BECAUSE roaming gangs are ineffective thanks to local. Xcom, local was never intended to be used like it is either. Devs never sat down and said, this will be a way to keep intel on a system. And every proposed nerf to cloaks hurts the cloaky hunting you claim to be fine with one way or another. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3662	Posted - 2016.12.30 01:23:10 - [121] - Quote Get what 100% right? See bad guy -> dock up. Damn right im trying to change that. You think its wrong i want such a brainless and one-dimensional process gone? Really? Whereas without local you won't be sure if you've got it 100% right or not. Not even the hunter knows whether they've got it 100% right when he can't see who else is in system. @Jerghul, Attentive players who are at the keyboard will still see bad guys on d-scan and have a way to detect cloaked ships. Removing local doesn't hurt attentive players compared to the dumb and lazy. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3663	Posted - 2016.12.30 07:07:09 - [122] - Quote Afk cloaking is a complete non-issue without local or where local is useless because of false positives (i.e. wh and hi-sec). But when you try to use local as intel, afk cloaking suddenly becomes a problem. Yes using local intel and afk cloaking are obviously linked. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3663	Posted - 2016.12.30 14:38:06 - [123] - Quote And yet if i go afk whilst cloaked in a wh, no one cares. But if i do it where people try to use local as intel, threads start popping up. Ignoring the pattern there is willful ignorance. The people who have a problem with afk cloaking are also a very small minority. Whereas nerfs to cloaking will have an impact in all areas of the game. Regarding carriers, they are aligned to safes and then cloak.They dont have to wait for their fighters and why does carrier ratting need special consideration exactly? Where is their fleet? So thats why we have to have local? So you can solo rat in a carrier? And you talk about entitlement... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3664	Posted - 2016.12.30 20:22:02 - [124] - Quote Dracvlad, i didn't read your post about carriers, this thread is over 400 pages long. But regardless carriers weren't dying all the time. In what period are you suggesting they were? In the time it takes them to warp from standstill, the hunter has barely loaded grid. If its any consolation xcom, i disregard your arguments because you seem to think that those that want to pve should be extremely difficult to pvp with and anyone who wants to attack pve players is a terrible person for even thinking of doing so. And if I'm right in thinking that, EVE isn't the game for you. It IS built around pvp, most frequently non-consensual, and a HTFU attitude. The nature of the target, no matter how carebeary, is irrelevant. There are no fair fights. Only fights. You'll say its killing the game, but its actually the opposite. Pve players dont stick around. Pvp players who get their first taste of blood, be it carebear blood, do. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3697	Posted - 2017.01.13 18:02:32 - [125] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Bronson Hughes wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I see you did not mention AFK in your reply? I didn't mention it because it's irrelevant. Going AFK while cloaked or docked provides players with the same absolute safety* and has the same impact on the perception of local, and it's that perception that is ultimately driving the issue. *It actually provides more safety to the docked player, but, for sake of argument, I'm willing to assume it's the same. I have never seen anyone do a cyno inside a station... No one has lit a cyno whilst cloaked either. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3697	Posted - 2017.01.13 18:03:19 - [126] - Quote Funki Ellecon wrote: Lol my post got closed cause its as they say redundant to this one . THIS POST IS NOW ALMOST 2 YEARS HERE AND SOLUTION NOWHERE . Hey CCP are you actually checking this post or you just wanted to put it on one place so you dont have to be bothered by it ? Read the opening post. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3704	Posted - 2017.01.16 16:35:13 - [127] - Quote Caitlynn Askyra wrote: Because you should be playing the game if you want to make an impact, not working or sleeping. Afk cloaking is as much playing the game as afk mining, trading, doing pi, moon mining, collecting taxes with a citadel...etc But if you don't like afk cloaking you can rat in hi-sec. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3705	Posted - 2017.01.17 11:17:07 - [128] - Quote The only reason local isn't perfect is because of afk cloaking like you say. But thats how intel SHOULD be. So you're not nerfing cloaks unless you nerf local. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3755	Posted - 2017.02.13 17:25:50 - [129] - Quote Xcom wrote: I wish it was possible to filter out useless commenters out of threads. Some individuals just spam useless comments that aren't constructive or even relevant to the topic. Just here to tare down any idea or discussion that might have leads to something more interesting then the regular idea bashing just for the sake of it. This is a very interesting thread when the same idea bashers aren't here to give there input about cloaking, when in fact they rather not see it changed then proceeding forcing any discussion to the ground. Indeed, it's frustrating when the same useless commenters don't want local to change and bash ideas and shut down discussion. They'll even pretend local isn't part of the afk cloaky problem because they know it undermines their position so well. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3800	Posted - 2017.03.03 16:36:54 - [130] - Quote I can assure you we are going over the same tired arguments. Everynow and then a new player comes to the thread and posts their idea without reading everything in the op. This starts the cycle all over again. Last i heard was fozzie saying there's a good reason WH players don't whine about afk cloakers (presumably local, but perhaps also cynos). But that was a long time ago and i haven't heard much on the OA front either. Amazed that volunteers are still monitoring and reporting on the thread. You guys have patience. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3808	Posted - 2017.03.03 20:33:03 - [131] - Quote Lol or there are posts like that baiting players which also starts the whole thing again. Edit- as if predatory gameplay is even a bad thing in a pvp mmo. Go on voidster, tell me how im a murderer again because i enjoy pvp. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3855	Posted - 2017.03.29 23:16:32 - [132] - Quote Wow, how disingenuous can you be? Everything you've just said the ratter doesn't know about the cloaker, the cloaker doesn't know about the ratter. A cloaker doesn't know if the ratter has a cyno fit or if he has friends nearby. Try working with your alliance. You might not fail so hard. Nullbears. Want all the rewards with no risk or effort. SSDD. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3917	Posted - 2017.05.10 00:07:07 - [133] - Quote Merin Ryskin wrote: Vokan Narkar wrote: I just don't understand why ISDs doesn't enforce rules of this forum subsection. Instead they endorse trollers who are not posting anything constructive and even mocking OPs, closing threads and move it here. Because, ISD, in their hearts, know that AFK cloaking whines are the sad bleating of people who fail at EVE. ISD can't ban their accounts, but they probably don't have any real sense of obligation to protect the failures from justified criticism. ^^^^ It wouldn't surprise me if isd's rolled their eyes just as much as we do when yet another afk cloaky thread pops up despite this sticky. Saying they don't enforce rules and endorse trolling is a complete fallacy though. Otherwise they wouldn't be locking these redundant threads. They'd leave them open and let us troll hard. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3919	Posted - 2017.05.13 20:34:34 - [134] - Quote Xcom wrote: With moon mining goes into asteroids and citadels AFK camping will become an even bigger pain. It shouldn't be long till every dispo moon will have 20 campers sitting on top. 20, 100... What difference does it make when it takes just one to scare you off? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3919	Posted - 2017.05.13 20:57:29 - [135] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: First off how many people quit? People say this all the time, but it is completely devoid of any factual basis at all. Indeed. Pretty sure dracvlad said he was quitting. The only people I've seen disappear after a QQ is kaarous and tippia. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3921	Posted - 2017.05.14 12:25:16 - [136] - Quote Mag's didn't QQ no. Just left one day. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3941	Posted - 2017.06.01 05:50:00 - [137] - Quote Max Deveron wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Here is the strategy for you going forward, stop saying local work the same for everyone. It doesn't. How does Local work differently between Highsec and Losec? Highsec and Nullsec? Losec and Nullsec? Hundreds of false postives make local in hisec less effective as an intel tool. It's rarely useful outside a wardec. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3946	Posted - 2017.06.08 04:10:25 - [138] - Quote Max Deveron wrote: ok, especially @ Shitecko there....... Explain why "AFK" cloaking is such a valid tactic and why that alone needs to be defended so heavily by its supporters? It's the only decent way to provide risk to nullbears. If there was a better way to hunt null bears, or if local didn't provide such omnipotent intel, it wouldn't happen. Most people, including teckos, would prefer afk cloaking to be 'fixed' in some way. But that fix includes nerfing local so that hunting bears isn't about only catching players who are alt tabbed. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3947	Posted - 2017.06.09 02:50:23 - [139] - Quote Valaba wrote: Coming from someone who always has live fleets available at their beck and call. The largest Alliance in the game.... Maybe you should think about the environment you live in before making such a ridiculous post. You reside in fantasy null. So you're asking for cloaking to be nerfed because you know your group isn't capable of operating in a pvp environment? So in this respect can ccp make it easy for my 5 man corp to run c6's? Btw, we don't want to pvp either. We just want to make billions with no risk. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3947	Posted - 2017.06.09 12:15:52 - [140] - Quote Nortal Aldent wrote: I think CCP MUST realize there IS an issue given the number of pages this thread has going on. Doesn't mean they will DO anything...but they must realize there is an issue. It's on the first page. This threads existence does not mean ccp nor isd's think there is anything that needs fixing. It is simply a thread to put all the whining in one place. Ccp fozzie hinted that something might be done, but that it had something to do with afk cloaking not being an issue in wh space. This was well over a year ago though. @max deveron You're coming from the exact same position that i did when i first came to these threads. I dislike the immunity that cloaks provide. But i got into a lengthy discussion with our old friend nikk narrel about local. The way it works completely defeats the point of cloaking. There is no way, outside of wh's, to sneak up on people because you are painfully obvious in local. In many cases you are painfully obvious several systems out and all targets disappear before you even load system. The only way to get people to doubt your presence and leave the safety of their pos/citadel is to appear to be afk. You have to screw up on multiple levels to be caught by a regular roam, and as a result very few ratters are caught by non-cloakers. There is counter play to afk cloaking at the moment. True you will never get the initiative, but ratting in groups and having a cyno ready makes ambushing you immensely more dangerous. The reason this thread has gone on so long? Because null bears feel entitled to rat without support (case in point from our latest arrivals). Other players disrupting their game play should be forbidden. And null bears are unable to think their ideas through. And as for their ideas: - If you can decloak a cloaked ship then all the null bears dock up and a combat fleet arrives forcing the decloaked cloaker out. There is no opportunity to disrupt resource gathering. - If you know that someone is afk because of a flag in local then you also know when they are not afk by the lack of flag. Everyone knows when to dock up and when not to dock up. There is no opportunity to disrupt resource gathering. - If cloaking takes fuel then the ratters know its only a matter of time before a cloaker has to leave. They simply sit in safety and wait it out. Then when the cloaker is gone, rat in absolute safety. This is the worst of both worlds. The cloaker is still untouchable until he leaves and the ratter is still ratting with no risk. A compromise needs to be made. Local is too powerful. Cloaks are too powerful. A way for cloaked ships to be found would be good, but only if it requires some kind of effort and only if it isn't stupidly obvious the second an enemy enters system, especially an enemy using a cloak. There should be significant risk when you're ratting in null. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3947	Posted - 2017.06.09 12:26:20 - [141] - Quote With regards to the proposal; Doesn't stop people afk cloaking at a safe. Even with grids being 10k km, thats not much time to do anything about someone coming. I imagine most players will still dock up as soon as a cloaker enters local bringing us back to square one. We really mean it when we say local is the problem. No local, no point in afk cloaking. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3950	Posted - 2017.06.11 23:59:10 - [142] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shadowlance wrote: Simpliest solution of "problem" with afk-cloaking is not showing players in local chat! Just like it's in wh space. The real problem is in afk-ratting(+botting) with no risk - and whining of these carebears about cloaked payers... Go to WH space if local upsets you! Nope it is nothing to do with botting and everything to do with what comes out of a cyno on top of you.... Goto hisec if afk cloakers in local upset you. See, i can be as ignorant as you! EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3970	Posted - 2017.07.03 05:09:50 - [143] - Quote - What makes people think a vni should be a good ratting ship for null? And whos fault is it for not fitting a ratting shio properly? - The cloaker does not know how many people you have able to respond or hiding behind your own cyno. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3990	Posted - 2017.07.26 12:37:19 - [144] - Quote Greylord Kane wrote: OKay so that thread got locked.. To answer your question Daichi Yamato this topic will keep going back and forth until CCP decided what they are going to do. I have been in EVE since the beginning so you know, the VERY beginning...... and it's a shame. really. This topic will go back and forth. But yes if requested by CCP I can show over 10 paid accounts from our corp alone to them because of this very problem. And I am sure there are countless more. Hunting is not when you log in at down time and keep your character on until the next downtime,,,,, and just leave for the day no matter how you try to spin it. You can define it how you will, I define it as I will. A whole ten? From the very beginning of the game? Well **** me thats why subs must be down. So why did these guys quit the entire game rather than move to hi-sec where they can make money without afk cloakers? Did they feel entitled to the best possible rewards the game had to offer but with none of the risk? Seems a bit silly. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3994	Posted - 2017.08.01 22:22:58 - [145] - Quote I can't believe you dont understand how theres nothing wrong with being afk. Why should they be at their keyboard? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3995	Posted - 2017.08.02 11:59:33 - [146] - Quote The point in the mechanic is they are hunting you. But if it wasn't for local they wouldn't even need to pretend to be afk. No local, no afk cloaking. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3995	Posted - 2017.08.03 10:20:21 - [147] - Quote Caitlynn Askyra wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Caitlynn Askyra wrote: Your logic is absolutely terrible Teckos. Only because you don't like it, which is not a valid argument. NOBODY sits in a system for 5 days to catch a procurer or VNI off guard because of the local chat mechanic. That's the most stupid justification for AFK cloaking I've ever heard. Any hunter with a brain would go to wormhole space. The mechanic doesn't add anything to the game, there is no psychological warfare or any of that crap, we just move to the system next door if we want to do anything. The cloaker gets nothing out of sitting there, I just have to spend 20 mins moving stuff into the next system for no reason at all. What's the ******* point. That's precisely why they do it. To hunt you. To hurt your income. To hurt your alliance income. You don't like it, but it's a valid strategy. And hunting you is content. You can always goto hisec (where you clearly belong anyways). EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3995	Posted - 2017.08.03 10:26:24 - [148] - Quote Caitlynn Askyra wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: The point in the mechanic is they are hunting you. But if it wasn't for local they wouldn't even need to pretend to be afk. No local, no afk cloaking. Whatever dude, they aren't hunting anything. Remove hotdropping then you can remove local. If you tried to remove local and not hotdropping then you would lose half the players in the game because there would be zero point in trying to mine or rat. You can hunt just fine with local anyway, I can do it, it's not hard. Maybe you are just bad. Maybe that's why you have to hunt miners instead of players that want to PVP. You don't really think before you post do you...You realise less than half the players in the game are even in a position to be hot dropped right? And the irony of you waving your pvp e-peen. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

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